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Post by thecreep on Mar 22, 2009 15:57:34 GMT -8
I know the collectors here do a lot of commission,so I figured this was the best placr to ask. Ok, I set up my first commission work a couple of weeks ago. I liked the artists work, and told her what I was going for based on the works in her gallery. She said ok, and we agree to a size of 5" 7" and a price of $80. Then this last week I get an e-mail that says "hello, your piece is done what is your address?". I aks if I need to send some money, shipping whatever. The next e-mail I get is some guy that runs a gallery using her e-mail, letting me know the painting was larger than expected so the price of course will now be $100. I ask if I can see the painting, I haven't seen anything at this point. So I am directed to an image of it already up in the artists site. Not what I was going for at all. So I tell this guy, this size and price was not what was talked about and so I might have to skip. He said "ok, the painting is already on its way to you so just send it back". ? Is this how commission are supposed to go? Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldnt I be dealing with the artists the whole way through, not a gallery owner? Shouldn't I have seen a progress shot of the piece? And the price and size shouldn't have been manipulated. And then to just send it out without me fully agreeing?
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Post by carmichael on Mar 22, 2009 17:23:41 GMT -8
I know the collectors here do a lot of commission,so I figured this was the best placr to ask. Ok, I set up my first commission work a couple of weeks ago. I liked the artists work, and told her what I was going for based on the works in her gallery. She said ok, and we agree to a size of 5" 7" and a price of $80. Then this last week I get an e-mail that says "hello, your piece is done what is your address?". I aks if I need to send some money, shipping whatever. The next e-mail I get is some guy that runs a gallery using her e-mail, letting me know the painting was larger than expected so the price of course will now be $100. I ask if I can see the painting, I haven't seen anything at this point. So I am directed to an image of it already up in the artists site. Not what I was going for at all. So I tell this guy, this size and price was not what was talked about and so I might have to skip. He said "ok, the painting is already on its way to you so just send it back". ? Is this how commission are supposed to go? Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldnt I be dealing with the artists the whole way through, not a gallery owner? Shouldn't I have seen a progress shot of the piece? And the price and size shouldn't have been manipulated. And then to just send it out without me fully agreeing? We don't like arranging commissions at all, but simply put the people you are dealing with are not used to handling the process at all. I'm sure they will work out the kinks through experiences like this one with you! They sent you the piece without you paying? That's just not good business...and of course you should have seen and approved the piece, not necessarily along the way for such an affordable piece, but certainly at the end. You will find a lot of artists will refer you to their galleries when they get commission requests, this keeps their gallery happy and enables them to handle the business while the artist creates. Of course frequently a gallery will deny any commission requests (especially if they have a lot of unsold work from that artist available, or they have no work and a waiting list is already in the works or they are building up for a new show). In fact there are more reasons to say no to commissions then yes most of the time. On the other hand artists who don't involve their galleries frequently take on commissions from anyone. Often they are really undermining their careers and will soon find that few galleries will want to work with them. It's a tough line. As a collector your first impulse upon discovering a new artist may be to reach out directly and see what they have available or if they will do a commission, you might be able to get a better deal or a fresh piece no one else has seen. But if you found that artist through a gallery you are really doing the gallery a bad turn and I would argue that unless the gallery is involved it's bad news for the artists career, unless of course the artist has no regular gallery, then it's free game. just my 2cents as a gallerist and collector! s
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Post by thecreep on Mar 22, 2009 17:34:48 GMT -8
I see what you mean. I didn't find the artist through a gallery, it was through myspace. And I would have happily got a piece already made, but there was nothing in that size range available.
Also, is that just for a gallery that represents the artist, is just shows their work now and then?
If they are represented, that I understand. I don't however like the idea of setting up a commission with an artist, and then what seems like a gallery stepping in to get their cut halfway through. Ive read about plenty of commissions on this site, where the dealings were with the artist beginning to end.
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Post by dangler on Mar 22, 2009 18:49:28 GMT -8
... it was unprofessional creepman - don't feel bad about their naive business with you, it was their mistake.
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Post by carmichael on Mar 22, 2009 18:52:34 GMT -8
I see what you mean. I didn't find the artist through a gallery, it was through myspace. And I would have happily got a piece already made, but there was nothing in that size range available. Also, is that just for a gallery that represents the artist, is just shows their work now and then? If they are represented, that I understand. I don't however like the idea of setting up a commission with an artist, and then what seems like a gallery stepping in to get their cut halfway through. Ive read about plenty of commissions on this site, where the dealings were with the artist beginning to end. If you found them direct, and they didn't pass you to the gallery right away, then they brought in a gallery at the end, it's probably because they mentioned it to the gallery and the gallery freaked out on them and said "let us take it from here" or some such. Again, just all sounds like lack of experience on all sides. As a gallery we don't exclusively represent any artists except Know Hope, but we expect/hope the artists we show to bring us into the conversation if a collector clearly found out about their work through our efforts to market them. This gets really tricky at times, since it's such a global market, but we would hope that if an LA collector contacted one of our artists they would refer them to us, if a UK collector then by all means the UK gallery could handle the deal. UNLESS the contact comes while we have a show on our walls or just before/after a show opens. Again we would hope that all buyers contacting the artists at that point would be referred to us, as we have taken on the expense of mounting/marketing a show etc and it's a partnership with the artist, everyone for themselves. Unfortunately things don't always go that way. Also, and this goes for all artists, it is essential that selling of artwork direct should be priced EXACTLY the same as if it was being sold through a gallery. A direct sale can't be 50% off just cause there is no gallery involved. Any artist doing that will again quickly learn that no galleries will want to work with them! And direct sales are discouraged in general, there are several artists we like a lot but don't feel we can show cause they make the work so available there is too much supply for the demand. But of course everyone needs to eat...
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Post by highbrow on Mar 22, 2009 18:59:10 GMT -8
I have a commission in the works from an artist, I contcted the artist who directed me to the gallery I started with a 12X14 size work and after much back and fourth finally settled on a 24X24 and agreed on price, I was asked to send 50 percent payment for starting and 50 percent just before delivery. I ended up sending full payment and was shown two sketches. I picked the one I liked mot and asked for a few minor changes which the artist did no questions asked ( something like adding a character and removing one as the work was very specific with certain details )
My question is the artist informed me he was going to start painting, I had not heard from him in sometime and contacted the gallery about 4 weeks ago to ask of progress, and was informed all commissions had been put on hold until he finishess his Solo show painting, my question is sshould the commission been taken on if they knew the Solo show was apon us, and how long do you typically have to wait for a commission.
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Post by thecreep on Mar 22, 2009 19:01:48 GMT -8
... it was unprofessional creepman - don't feel bad about their naive business with you, it was their mistake. Ok, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't getting in a tizzy over something that was standard. I think I am learning now why many people stick to just a few artists. If you like their work, and they are easy to deal with, just keep going. thanks everyone.
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Post by carmichael on Mar 22, 2009 22:32:06 GMT -8
I have a commission in the works from an artist, I contcted the artist who directed me to the gallery I started with a 12X14 size work and after much back and fourth finally settled on a 24X24 and agreed on price, I was asked to send 50 percent payment for starting and 50 percent just before delivery. I ended up sending full payment and was shown two sketches. I picked the one I liked mot and asked for a few minor changes which the artist did no questions asked ( something like adding a character and removing one as the work was very specific with certain details ) My question is the artist informed me he was going to start painting, I had not heard from him in sometime and contacted the gallery about 4 weeks ago to ask of progress, and was informed all commissions had been put on hold until he finishess his Solo show painting, my question is sshould the commission been taken on if they knew the Solo show was apon us, and how long do you typically have to wait for a commission. Some artists who take on commission have a year to two year waiting list (Jose Parla) but they are very upfront about it (and not taking on any new commissions at this time). To take on your commission, move it forward, take your money, and then all of a sudden say it's not happening is again very uncool... but again everything about commissions is often uncool... s
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Post by thecreep on Mar 22, 2009 23:20:23 GMT -8
I have a commission in the works from an artist, I contcted the artist who directed me to the gallery I started with a 12X14 size work and after much back and fourth finally settled on a 24X24 and agreed on price, I was asked to send 50 percent payment for starting and 50 percent just before delivery. I ended up sending full payment and was shown two sketches. I picked the one I liked mot and asked for a few minor changes which the artist did no questions asked ( something like adding a character and removing one as the work was very specific with certain details ) My question is the artist informed me he was going to start painting, I had not heard from him in sometime and contacted the gallery about 4 weeks ago to ask of progress, and was informed all commissions had been put on hold until he finishess his Solo show painting, my question is sshould the commission been taken on if they knew the Solo show was apon us, and how long do you typically have to wait for a commission. Some artists who take on commission have a year to two year waiting list (Jose Parla) but they are very upfront about it (and not taking on any new commissions at this time). To take on your commission, move it forward, take your money, and then all of a sudden say it's not happening is again very uncool... but again everything about commissions is often uncool... s I have had some very good experiences before. This is the first time though, that I have dealt with an artist I rarely keep in touch with. The other times I had featured the artist on my site, or interviewed etc. So when I inquired about a commission it went smoothly, possibly because we had already talked a bit before.
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Post by kidrobotct on Mar 23, 2009 5:03:25 GMT -8
carmichael - thanks for all your input. you've provided a very professional but also upfront look into the world of galleries and commissions. Makes a lot more sense to me now.
creep- previously with commissions i've had done some of the artists have shown me a concept drawing they had in mind (they didn't want to waste time making something that wouldn't be liked) while others have just said tell me what works of mine you like and i'll try to base it off those. I did have one piece I didn't like at all and the artist kept it and used it for another show (where it sold to someone who did like it).
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Post by sebreg on Mar 23, 2009 9:44:07 GMT -8
Very insightful thread, thanks guys!
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Post by highbrow on Mar 23, 2009 9:58:34 GMT -8
Car,
I agree the only reason i went for a Commission was two fold, one nothikng from the artist was available for purchase and two it was a gift for my wife, the artist I felt would be able to handle the work beer then anyone else as there were 5 details i knew she would love to have in it, more of a fun painting, however I am glad i did not tell her about it as it was suppose to be a birthday gift and we are fast approaching and going to by pass.
I guess my question is why an artist woulkd take or let a gallery push a commission on him if A. he knew he had to many at the time, or B. he would have to push it to the side to prep for a solo show.
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Post by carmichael on Mar 23, 2009 10:39:28 GMT -8
Some artists who take on commission have a year to two year waiting list (Jose Parla) but they are very upfront about it (and not taking on any new commissions at this time). To take on your commission, move it forward, take your money, and then all of a sudden say it's not happening is again very uncool... but again everything about commissions is often uncool... s I have had some very good experiences before. This is the first time though, that I have dealt with an artist I rarely keep in touch with. The other times I had featured the artist on my site, or interviewed etc. So when I inquired about a commission it went smoothly, possibly because we had already talked a bit before. I think a lot of people have great experiences with commissions. And they are a central part of the business, they just seem so difficult to handle in a way that everyone feels good about them. Just as in dealing with a gallery, a personal relationship always helps a lot when dealing with an artist. If there are artists you like, get to know them and their gallery at the same time, but never cut one or the other out. And if they don't have a gallery, introduce them to galleries you have a personal relationship with, that will really get you the relationship you are looking for with both.
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Post by carmichael on Mar 23, 2009 10:46:36 GMT -8
carmichael - thanks for all your input. you've provided a very professional but also upfront look into the world of galleries and commissions. Makes a lot more sense to me now. creep- previously with commissions i've had done some of the artists have shown me a concept drawing they had in mind (they didn't want to waste time making something that wouldn't be liked) while others have just said tell me what works of mine you like and i'll try to base it off those. I did have one piece I didn't like at all and the artist kept it and used it for another show (where it sold to someone who did like it). My pleasure! It's something we think about a bit too much at times so it's nice to get my thoughts out!
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Post by carmichael on Mar 23, 2009 10:53:14 GMT -8
Car, I agree the only reason i went for a Commission was two fold, one nothikng from the artist was available for purchase and two it was a gift for my wife, the artist I felt would be able to handle the work beer then anyone else as there were 5 details i knew she would love to have in it, more of a fun painting, however I am glad i did not tell her about it as it was suppose to be a birthday gift and we are fast approaching and going to by pass. I guess my question is why an artist woulkd take or let a gallery push a commission on him if A. he knew he had to many at the time, or B. he would have to push it to the side to prep for a solo show. One thing I have learned is that commissions with deadlines are always a bad idea! But again in this situation it's all about communication, both sides need to make it clear when the work will be done and agree on it. Obviously things come up and there needs to be wiggle room. But if you agree to a basic plan up front it will be easier for everyone in the long run. In this case I am guessing the artist thought they could get the piece done right away and that just didn't happen, now they are under pressure to produce for the show and it's totally understandable that they need to focus on that. And it's in your interest that they make that show the best they can. But I think you have every right to say you needed the piece for a certain date and since it doesn't look like it will be ready then you would like your money back...
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Post by thecreep on Mar 23, 2009 12:57:19 GMT -8
I think a lot of people have great experiences with commissions. And they are a central part of the business, they just seem so difficult to handle in a way that everyone feels good about them. Just as in dealing with a gallery, a personal relationship always helps a lot when dealing with an artist. If there are artists you like, get to know them and their gallery at the same time, but never cut one or the other out. And if they don't have a gallery, introduce them to galleries you have a personal relationship with, that will really get you the relationship you are looking for with both. Which is one thing my site has been able to do. Over the past couple of years I have introduced around 15 artists to a handful of galleries, many of which are doing stellar now. As far as the commission area, and pardon my ignorance I am still learning. What is the role of the gallery, if a commission can easily be setup between the artist and buyer? Provided the artist is not solely represented by that gallery.
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Post by svenman on Mar 23, 2009 13:18:37 GMT -8
this is a great thread and i read your comments with interest seth, which i think are bang on the money - so thanks for sharing your thoughts i've done a few commissions myself and they have always been very pleasurable experiences, and have helped me to get to know an artist better through the process. some have been direct with the artist, some have been arranged (financially) through a gallery. whichever way works for the particular artist / gallery works for me. i honour and respect the fact that galleries put a lot of work into aiding artists market and promote themselves. i think the point made about deadlines is an important one though.... a gallery showing should always take priority over commissions - be it just one or a whole line of them. if the artist doesn't continue to put strong work in the gallery shows and has to rush completing things to suit a commission, he will just be shooting himself (and his gallery) in the foot. i have a couple of things on at the moment, that have been ongoing for a while... i paid upfront on one, but let the artist know that i didn't even want him to start until after a solo show even though he said he could. one commission recently completed took over a year, but it was well worth the wait, and was understood from the start. i think for me, the most important thing to do if you are thinking of commissioning an artist is to not try and play art director... if you like particular elements of an artists work, let them know. discuss the content and style you like from previous pieces, and even an idea behind a piece, but don't try and steer it too heavily. let the artist have the vision and they will come through with a killer piece for you. sorry about all of the masculine inflection in the words above! of the pieces we have in our collection, it is the commissioned pieces that mean the most to us, and probably the ones that we will treasure the most. oh, and josh, it does sound strange that the gallery would get involved late in the process like you described.
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Post by thecreep on Mar 23, 2009 13:23:05 GMT -8
oh, and josh, it does sound strange that the gallery would get involved late in the process like you described. Yeh, I don't mind a gallery being involved, but be there from the beginning you know? I also agree about not playing art director. I think its not only the artists style, but imagination that we are all fans of. So I like to let them go off and have fun. This "experience" was my first real commission I guess. All the rest have been with artists I constantly talk to, so they pretty much know what I like and always come up with killer stuff.
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Post by themicawber on Mar 23, 2009 18:22:44 GMT -8
Sorry to hear that you had such a lowsy experience with your first commission. I definitely think that both the artist and the gallery were way out of bounds here by forcing the unwanted piece down your throat by shipping it without reviewing things with you first. Very unprofessional. It's one thing to maybe misinterpret an idea that the commissioner was trying to go for...but to change the size and the price of the piece without discussing it with the customer is so uncool. I appreciate the class that you have shown by not exposing the artist though, although, I wouldn't fault you if you did.
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Post by thecreep on Mar 23, 2009 19:11:04 GMT -8
As far as the commission area, and pardon my ignorance I am still learning. What is the role of the gallery, if a commission can easily be setup between the artist and buyer? Provided the artist is not solely represented by that gallery. [/quote] ... I think it goes a little something like this, $$$[/quote] Yeh thats what I thought. I mean, I get that its a business and you need to take care of your business. My worry is that sometimes money becomes to much of an issue and tends to ruin the scene. Look what happened with the last huge art boom, Schnabel, Salle etc. With the economy going as it is, I just hope people don't start to cannibalize each other just to make sure the money keeps flowing.
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Post by thecreep on Mar 23, 2009 19:16:43 GMT -8
I appreciate the class that you have shown by not exposing the artist though, although, I wouldn't fault you if you did. Yeh I have no intention to start naming people. No matter how many bad experiences with commissions or shows that I curate, I do my best to just keep it positive. I won't work with said artists again, but I don't need to go around naming them.
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Post by highbrow on Mar 23, 2009 19:44:11 GMT -8
Sven,
thanks for the insight on all this.
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Post by voleboy on Mar 24, 2009 1:59:24 GMT -8
Interesting topic. I only have one experience. I got in touch with the gallery and had expressed admiration about a sold out piece. I was told the artist could do something in a similar style. I asked whether they needed input from me, and told no (not in an unkind way). I was happy to place my trust in them, as I had seen the body of work from the artist and liked it all. So I kind of put myself in their hands.
Next time I was contacted, was when I was sent a picture of the completed piece and after seeing the initial sold out piece it took a bit of getting used to....if that makes sense. I had fallen in love with the one I didn't get. However, this didn't last very long at all and when I looked at teh photo again and evaluated it on it's own merit I was won over. When it actually arrived I was delighted to have it and now wouldn't swap it for anything in the world. It's a relation of the original piece, without being a copy, and stands on it's own. A testament to the skill and vision of the artist.
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Post by lowpro on Mar 26, 2009 21:12:11 GMT -8
What do people think about an artist charging significantly more (25-30%) for commissions than their gallery work? Has anyone experienced this before? Is there any way to justify such antics?
I have commissioned work from many of my favorite artists over the years and would be down right shocked and offended by such a pricing scheme. In all my past experiences, there was a very clear understanding that the artist would calibrate their commission rates in line with their retail prices. At times, a discount of some sort was even provided as a means of giving back to a collector that has supported them over the years. This isn't necessary or expected, and a standardize price system is understandable and acceptable. Despite the fact that nearly all of the proceeds from a commission painting will be going directly to the artist rather a 50/50 split with a representing gallery, I'd rather know that the artist will be paid in full for their work, so I'm perfectly content with equalizing the price points. There really is no reason they should be priced differently anyway; not any less and certainly not any more.
In my opinion, to expect a long time supporter of your work to pay significantly more than primary market prices is confusing, infuriating, and teeters on the brink of unethical. With anything controversial, there are undoubtedly a range of perspectives and explanations that could be presented. Personally, I don't add much weight to a commission requiring substantially more work than a conventional painting an artist may complete for a gallery exhibit. Perhaps an additional sketch or two might be necessary to flesh out the concept the collector and the artist have agreed upon. But even that is debatable. Besides, isn't that what an artist does anyway. The dynamic of a commission painting isn't drastically different, aside from providing an opportunity for the artist to collaborate in the initial conceptual phase with a person that greatly appreciates their artwork...something which I would hope the artist would value in it's own right and recognize as the ultimate form of flattery, not a means to take advantage of a loyal patron.
Sure, there could be other things at play too, aside from a little more work potentially being necessary. Some artists don't take many private commission, thus possibly justifying - in their eyes - that a premium be placed on the opportunity due to it's rarity. This line of reasoning troubles me. Likewise, many artists allow their representing gallery to broker the commission as a means of alleviating some of the business side of things. They need to get their cut of the pie, so perhaps that's further rationale for bumping up the price a bit. Who knows?! Ultimately, though, to charge a premium at all, let alone such a significant 30% surcharge, on an artist's commission work is outrageous and insulting, whatever the excuse or explanation. If their work is currently selling for a certain price in galleries, then shouldn't their commissions be priced in that same range? Is there an etiquette that should be followed, at least with respect to pricing, on the artist/gallery side?
I'd be interested to hear some other thoughts.
If you had an opportunity to commission a painting from one of your favorite artist, could you ever stomach having to pay 30% more than you would for a painting the same size from a gallery? Would it be worth the upcharge to have some minor influence in the piece? Or would it end up serving as a painful reminder of the greedy nature of someone you admire and how much you got ripped off?
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Post by commandax on Mar 26, 2009 21:53:56 GMT -8
Some artists find painting "directed" commissions rather excruciating and only do it if they really need the money. The "opportunity" to "collaborate" with a collector is, for some artists, rather like taking an illustration job with a really inexperienced art director. The final product of most of these experiments is rarely the artist's best work, as the inspiration rarely flows naturally from the artist's vision, but is subordinated to some specific conceptual expectation or the emulation of some previously explored aesthetic that the collector admires.
Perhaps the best policy for artists who feel this way would be to refuse commissions altogether – but most artists can't afford to do that. So I guess your "commission premium" could be considered as a sort of pain and suffering surcharge.
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