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Post by rizza79 on Mar 10, 2012 8:18:33 GMT -8
sloppy? seriously? it's hand painted. this isn't some gilcee pumped out in an unlimited run. and for being hand painted, it's damn good. if one has to get within 2 feet to see the brush work, it's a gob well done. yeah. i am serious. that is why I said it. in relation to the rest of Tauba's oeuvre this piece is not so great. this is just my opinion but I think the work speaks for itself. regarding the price trajectory and these hammer prices being indicative of her real market, I would say there is a big disconnect. its sort of just common sense. |
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Post by funkymonkey on Mar 10, 2012 8:32:11 GMT -8
I have to disagree with the "sloppy" comment. I think this piece is brilliant for the reason I stated above.
As for the auction pricing, people will pay however much they deem appropriate. It will eventually reach an equilibrium. Or will it?
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Post by mose on Mar 11, 2012 9:18:54 GMT -8
But I could have told you several years ago that the folds would be worth several hundred grand so I don't see it as risky, she's one of a handful of "sure things." And considering how many other up and hot stuff contemporary artists (that aren't as good or tested as her) sell work in that price range it is well deserved for her. I have to really disagree with you on several fronts there, but respect your opinion nonetheless. She is a 'sure thing' because she has been determined by those-that-be to be next. Nothing really more than that. The quality of her work, at this point, doesn't warrant pricing at her level. I don't see anything game-changing. Her career, at this point, most definitely doesn't warrant that pricing and I believe calling her 'tested' is missing the mark by a wide, wide margin. For me, come back after she's had a major mid-career retrospective and continues to innovate and interest after. So, probably 15-20 years from now. The fact that an Auerbach fold would be priced the same as, for example, a large Lee Ufan dialogue, a prime, pristine McCracken plank, 5 or so Larry Bell boxes, 1-2 Kauffman bubbles from the 1960's, etc., all top examples of work from artists with dozens of museum shows and many column inches in major art history books. Artists who are forever, not just contemporary and whose mark is made. Looking at more emerging contemporary, I'd rather have the 5 very large Callum Innes Exposed Paintings, 5-10 special Liz Deschenes, or several important Carsten Nicolai works that I could have for the same $$$. Simple fact is, to me at least, her pricing is not deserved at this point, taking in to account traditional metrics, and that makes her a very dangerous buy at current levels. Reminds me of what a smart man named James argued several years ago on the Banksy board when talking about $100k Micallefs in comparison to what a $100k work of art truly is and/or should be. In the end though, should be very interesting to see this all play out, especially knowing that, even if I am correct on the merits, at the end the art market will do what it wants to do. |
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sport1
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Post by sport1 on Mar 11, 2012 11:42:21 GMT -8
>>I don't really see how it would be interesting, the answer is pretty much a known based on current auction prices. A huge fold right now would sell for several hundred thousand dollars to half a million. Who cares at this point unless you own one. I am a little surprised how much these minor works are going for. But I could have told you several years ago that the folds would be worth several hundred grand so I don't see it as risky, she's one of a handful of "sure things." And considering how many other up and hot stuff contemporary artists (that aren't as good or tested as her) sell work in that price range it is well deserved for her<<
I take my comment back then it wont be interesting to see a Fold come under that hammer as you already know exactly what it will sell for !! I guessing you knew the exact price the Binary piece would make aswell.
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Post by mose on Mar 11, 2012 12:28:14 GMT -8
Dollar, I only brought up Micallef so anyone who wanted to read that prior conversation on the Banksy board could find it(as that was the topic). Not comparing in the slightest, though I must say I do really like Micallef's work in general.
Funny, of the artists that for no real reason got associated with urban art in some way around 2006, Micallef & Chris Kettle were my favorites. Still love both and may add a Kettle soon, though Micallef would have to go down further for me.
One I will compare though is Kassay and Auerbach. I think both are going to be defined by what's 'next' of their initial hit series. Interesting place to be in. Frank Stella was able to keep things going for a while after 1958's black painting hit, only starting to falter in 1965 with the Irregular Polygons(according to some), or even as late as the early 1970's Polish Village series. He was well past it by 1975-1976 and the Exotic Birds.
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avert
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Post by avert on Mar 11, 2012 13:44:31 GMT -8
Mose, If you think tauba's fold series is her 'initial hit' then that really shows the depth of your knowledge.
Reading through these post auction comments is much like driving past a freeway accident. I can't look away, but the more I look, the more disgusting it becomes. The armchair speculation and art history equations are laughable at best.
Tauba Auerbach is an artist that from the moment she first started showing has done nothing but become more successful, and established in the world of art. She's young, and has shown no signs of slowing, stalling, or slipping. I see all of her auction results as evidence that she is a rising star. As for the idea that a hammer price is too high, I say two words, supply and demand. I've noticed for quite some time that she has been very smart about how many works she produces, and how they are sold. The fact that we're not seeing any of her more recent, or larger works go to auction says volumes about her collector base's faith in her future. Much like the saying goes.. know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.
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Post by mose on Mar 11, 2012 13:47:39 GMT -8
Mose, If you think tauba's fold series is her 'initial hit' then that really shows the depth of your knowledge. and that shows that you are glaring in your lack of proper communication skills and decency. Well done. Yes, her fold series can very well be called her 'initial hit'. It is the series that pushed her from a promising lesser-known filling out Deitch's roster(and not selling shows out) to being featured in the Whitney Biennial(what pieces were shown there?) and being a hot free agent signing with Cooper. two word, supply & demand? And auction prices? I've always been of the view that is 50% of the equation or less. The art business is many times worse than the financial industry, with much less transparency. Frequently, auction prices have precious little to do with supply and demand. And I must say, your apparent style of forum urchin can be utterly annoying. It gets depressing because there is almost no sense in trying to hold conversations about art online anymore. I mean, there are ways of stating disagreement that aren't disagreeable. I'd prefer you use them, lest this board become Banksy darkside part 2. |
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avert
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Post by avert on Mar 11, 2012 15:36:37 GMT -8
thank you for showing me the proper and decent way to discus art online. i'm a better person for it. perhaps i'll change my name to 'nama uni', in your honor.
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Post by funkymonkey on Mar 11, 2012 19:14:26 GMT -8
I am not sure why you naysayers are all hot and heavy about Tauba's auction results. The fact is that Tauba has been making incredible art since 2004. Like I said awhile ago, you just have to understand what she is trying to accomplish in each piece to appreciate it.
Another quandary I have is that why Tauba is always compared to Kassay on this forum?? There are plenty of other "youngins" who are in the same boat whose auction results are through the roof. How about Matt Day Jackson, Ahmed Alsoudani, Joe Bradley and Nate Lowman, just to name a few?
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Post by juggernut3 on Mar 12, 2012 20:43:31 GMT -8
I am not sure why you naysayers are all hot and heavy about Tauba's auction results. The fact is that Tauba has been making incredible art since 2004. Like I said awhile ago, you just have to understand what she is trying to accomplish in each piece to appreciate it. Another quandary I have is that why Tauba is always compared to Kassay on this forum?? There are plenty of other "youngins" who are in the same boat whose auction results are through the roof. How about Matt Day Jackson, Ahmed Alsoudani, Joe Bradley and Nate Lowman, just to name a few? Always late to the discussion. Sorry guys... Funky you bring up and interesting point. Tauba has definitely been around the block in terms of showing for a few years and is not an overnight artist like Mr. Brainwash (No offense Thierry). But I don't think she has been showing at the price points of MDJ, AA, JB or Nate Lowman for as long as those aritist. Those four have had their prices up there for a little bit and are gradually going up with support from a certain level of collector. (they are all also in their mid to early 30's and have been in the mainstream new york art scene for much longer (trust me being here in NYC can do wonders for your career if you get picked up by the right people). She's more like Kassay because 2-3 years ago, both their works could be purchased for less than 10-15k. So I think that's why certain people on the board are cautioning the sudden jump in prices. (Tauba is hyper 70k and Kassay is hyper 100k the past year). As Mose pointed out in this discussion with avert, Tauba has been with Deitch for a couple years and you could readily buy her works from those earlier shows/works. (The Alphabetized Bible, Shattered Glass, Statics... as someone pointed out.) Her price point jumped and correlated around her folds. IMHO, the folds are very aesthetically pleasing and are her first "initial public" hit. From personal observation, they are visually very sexy and remarkable, so it's not a surprise that it got so many people riled up and jumping on her side. I have many art friends that prefer her earlier works mentioned above as they feel more of a connection to her mathematical art value, on the other hand, I have other friends that swear by her fold paintings as her prime achievements. Avert seems to be firmly in the camp of the latter and I do entertain the day when a fold comes to auction to see where it goes (that's why they play the game!)... Avert seems to have the stance that if this piece went for 80k, then the folds (to him are better) should go for a lot more. That may very well be a good guess. But if the bidders with money like her earlier works more as the former camp of friends have told me, then it's likely that the folds will go for about 80-150k. Take the analogy that a Damien Hirst Spin painting sells for 600k and I think his Spot paintings are way better, does that mean it'll sell for 5 million? Maybe or Maybe not. Guess it depends if I win the lottery eh?  What I am trying to say is Tauba is still in the pump/inflating portion of her rise. No one knows the staying power until we look hindsight. Until then the people here will place their bets accordingly. Also on the note of Jacob Kassay, he may be the hottest super nova of them all with even less of a bio than Tauba (Dude just turned 27)... but that doesn't take away that his silver paintings are brilliant in person (I'm a big fan)... and that doesn't mean he'll flame out just because he rose fast. Fact is he's already shown at the Tate and ICA. As Mose pointed out... once the powers that be pick you as their horse, that artist will almost always be in the conversation. |
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Post by epicfai on Mar 12, 2012 21:17:53 GMT -8
well it's not as exciting as a fold at auction but there is a plate distortion II edition in the upcoming BAM/PFA 2012 gala auction if anyone is interested.
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Post by juggernut3 on Mar 13, 2012 8:32:10 GMT -8
Dollar... I think you took a lot of my comments out of context. I was merely stating both sides of the argument. I'm not exactly an extremist on this issue. Allow me to reiterate what I said earlier. I am a big fan of Tauba and I'm not a skeptic. I collect her and don't think this is a bubble. But I'm also not a fan (just my personal opinion) of how many people (here and on other forums) keeps talking about auction records and focus mostly on her folds. You bring up an excellent point regarding her static (photographs) and shatters. It did make waves for her (in the art world like the SECA award you stated). But to my original point. They did not bring the masses to buy her works in droves as her fold painting techniques. Recognition & Accolades do not always equate to commercial success. This is to clarify that I was referring to her commercial success is directly correlated to the folds bringing her aesthetics to a larger appeal... Which I think she was more than long overdue as I enjoyed her older works too. What is wrong with bringing up the "grain of salt" or a potential downside to which an artist goes up and could possibly comes down? I don't blindly make statements on this message board as I care about this community and want to make sure my cheerleading for the artist I care about isn't just roars and cheers as I also temper it with a look before you cross statement so the newer collectors can form their own opinions. For the record... my favorite works personally are the folds and statics. I think they'll probably do better in auction than what's come up thus far. But as stated earlier with my Damien Hirst Analogy... everyone has their own favorites and at an auction it takes only 2 to favor that medium to drive the prices up to infinity. (Guys please don't castrate me for bring up the obvious. Just merely educating our community...) Finally. Kassay isn't a bad word and neither is Tauba. Go back to my last statement about Kassay: "but that doesn't take away that his silver paintings are brilliant in person (I'm a big fan)... and that doesn't mean he'll flame out just because he rose fast." I like Kassay a lot. So me putting Kassay and Tauba in the same fruit category isn't a bad thing  I also never said Tauba has no staying power. (Circle back to the first part of this post.) I definitely think she has staying power. I just grained of salt her fast rise in prices similar to Kassays... it isn't a subjective correlation. It's merely a statement of fact that they both rose relatively quickly around the same time. Check out this link to an article that mentions them both and their auction rise. I don't agree with everything in it, but for the people interested in further discussing this topic, it's not a bad read. Link to article here...At the end of the day, this is a forum for collectors to discuss and share and of course debate like gentleman (or ladies). Please don't take things to a level that's too personal as it's just opinions. We won't know who's right or wrong until a few years from now. Always late to the discussion. Sorry guys... I'm really confused by how much people here are comparing Kassay and Auerbach. And then arguing that he has staying power while being skeptical of Tauba. I really disagree and think that just because (some) of their work was available for 10k around the same time is a shallow comparison. As someone else mentioned the comparisons between Lowman or Matthew Day Jackson etc. are more in line. All of them were in the Whitney Biennial. MDJ for example (like Tauba) showed for a number of years & sold in the 10-100k range. He then (like Tauba) appeared in both a Whitney Biennial and Greater NY show. A huge bump in interest followed that led to him becoming a 1 million dollar artist overnight. And while that 1 million figure has wilted a bit he is still very solid. And while I could understand how you could argue the folds are her first big hit I actually disagree. The Statics and Shatter are what won her the SECA award and she was certainly making waves well before the folds. She has numerous catalogs documenting her work the breadth of which is already beyond many people that are more expensive than her. But that said, aside from the most quintessential Alphabet paintings, I still think the folds will kill the earlier works at auction. Not only because they look good but because they're big. It's the reason that Eggleston just made a series of massive size prints for Christies. (He needed money for his foundation) And collectors are notorious size queens. |
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avert
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Post by avert on Mar 13, 2012 9:11:26 GMT -8
well said, juggernut3. i've been nodding along with many of these recent well composed comments.
and not that it matters, but i was mentioned earlier so, i'll simply say that i actually respond more to her early works. the auctioned off alphabet piece being one that i greatly admire. i will agree that her fold series took her to a higher level. i'm enjoying watching her art evolve, and her career grow.
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Post by gilsteph on Mar 13, 2012 11:38:02 GMT -8
A friend came to dinner recently and fell in love with my Plate Distortion 1. She would love to buy one but Paulson havent replied to my emails. Does this mean its sold out? And if not, what the current price is? ....thanks!!
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Post by gilsteph on Mar 13, 2012 11:39:15 GMT -8
Wierdly just received an email from them so please ignore my question |
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Post by svenman on Mar 13, 2012 13:35:55 GMT -8
where are the at now stephen, just out of interest?
i believe the blue distortion piece sold out, but what of the others?
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Post by mose on Mar 13, 2012 13:56:39 GMT -8
4/5 were for sale at the Independent air fair in NYC this past week(blue distortion not available). They were $5500 each. I saw a young woman drop $22k on the four while I was there.
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Post by rkitek on Mar 13, 2012 13:57:35 GMT -8
When I spoke with Paulson back in mid-October, I was told that only Plate Distortion II was available and at that time it was $4,500.
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Post by ricosg11 on Mar 13, 2012 14:00:59 GMT -8
I was in touch with paulson recently and was quoted $6k no discount allowed.
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Post by gilsteph on Mar 13, 2012 14:16:13 GMT -8
I was in touch with paulson recently and was quoted $6k no discount allowed. PD1 and 2 are currently $6k, PD3 isnt available. My friend is seriously considering buying 1 and 2....sounds like there isnt many left! |
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Post by epicfai on Mar 13, 2012 14:28:30 GMT -8
doesnt seem like the Fold/Slice Topo etchings get as much love. i actually quite like those. anyone know what they are like in person?
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Post by afroken on Mar 13, 2012 14:52:09 GMT -8
My Fold Topos are at the framers. I should have them back early next week so will post pics.
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Post by ricosg11 on Mar 13, 2012 15:06:41 GMT -8
I saw the slice prints in person this weekend and they are the picks of the litter IMO. That was with them framed next to the crumple prints. Incredibly executed and beautiful etchings. I was told $6k for those from Paulson as well although they were 5.5k at the fair. The photos online do them zero justice.
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Post by svenman on Mar 13, 2012 16:06:35 GMT -8
My Fold Topos are at the framers. I should have them back early next week so will post pics. i have to get this framed.  i'm quite dreading getting a quote with pukka glass and such. |
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Post by juggernut3 on Mar 13, 2012 20:29:30 GMT -8
My skepticism is merely to point out the downside that could potentially exists. I agree that she deserves her fame, support, and current retail price points. But there are many that are lurking in that crowd that just sees only the dollar signs. Hopefully the true supporters outweigh the speculators. Also I never said that Kassay isn't in the same boat as Tauba. I argue for both and I caution for both. That's why I see "similarities" in both. (Even if you may disagree with me) My cautionary statement applies for both of them. They both get thumbs up in my book... but (IMHO) also share a potential dark side of speculators... I do agree and disagree with you on your statement about her prints... I actually think some of her smaller sized and larger edition prints that sold for a few hundred of dollars now being speculated in the range of 3-5k may be of concern. On the other hand, I think that the large format Plate distortions could justify 10k by end of this year. They are made by a phenomenal print maker, they are very low in edition, they also are gigantic in format thus giving them a striking frame presence and finally they look incredible and are probably the closest thing a collector can come to a fold-esque piece on their walls without shelling out a down payment on a house... I understand your skepticism and normally agree with that angle. But of all the artists in this scene / discussed on this forum. Her sudden rise in value is one of the very few time times that it's well justified. Not that I think that means her prints are now with 10k etc. and that you should buy blindly. I understand you're devils advocate point of view but still it throws me that you would kind of argue for kassay in the same post your being skeptical of auerbach. The timing between the two is a coincidence. I do like the silver paintings. But I see a much higher chance of a cautionary tale with him. |
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I also never said Tauba has no staying power. (Circle back to the first part of this post.) I definitely think she has staying power. I just grained of salt her fast rise in prices similar to Kassays... it isn't a subjective correlation. It's merely a statement of fact that they both rose relatively quickly around the same time. 
