Hype?

[suborphan]

How much do you think hype is part of the "lowbrow" scene today? I have been collecting for a few years now and i remember the days when Biskup and Blaine Fontana were really sought after. But nowadays everyone seems to be after Simkins, Chueh and the new wave of girls (Kawasaki, Kukula, Hultberg, Sol, Brandi Milne etc etc).

Just thought to ask your opinions.

[sleepboy]

suborphan said:

How much do you think hype is part of the "lowbrow" scene today? I have been collecting for a few years now and i remember the days when Biskup and Blaine Fontana were really sought after. But nowadays everyone seems to be after Simkins, Chueh and the new wave of girls (Kawasaki, Kukula, Hultberg, Sol, Brandi Milne etc etc).

Just thought to ask your opinions.

Yah I think I have been caught up in hype before that motivated me to buy and then realizing that I didn't like the artist as much as I thought I would. Part of it is not having the experience of collecting for a while as I have only been really into it the last 2 years. I've often wondered how the scene will look in 10 years and how I will view my collection. But for the most part, now I only buy things I really love.

[irsk]

I don't know where I stand on "hype" other than I think it's responsible for most of the meteoric price hikes between shows.

[mute]

I got caught up in the "hype" here recently with an artist who is adored on this board and on every other lowbrow art board. I have a feeling I shouldn't even post this because of the flack I might catch for it. But here goes... Amy Sol. That's right, little beloved Amy Sol. Before you rip me a new one here me out. First off, I LOVE Amy's work. It's GREAT. Her pieces capture the feeling of sadness and innocence like no other artist I have seen. I bought one of her prints, "Leaving Downy Cloud Island" , I was excited as hell to get it, the problem came when I was holding it trying to decide where to put in my house. My first thought was the living room. My next thought was hell no it's to "Girlie" for my living room. My next thought after that... Oh fuck! I just spent almost $500 on something that really isn't to my taste. So as much as I had thought I liked her work I didn't really like it enough to own it. So I still have it, I don't have the heart to get rid of it yet, I'm still holding out hope that I'll change my mind about it. Is this understandable? Please don't hate me

[entropy]

irsk said:

I don't know where I stand on "hype" other than I think it's responsible for most of the meteoric price hikes between shows.

Absolutely spot on.

I realize there's a responsibility a gallery feels in marketing a show and its featured artists... You can see who is spending money on the full page ads in Juxtapoz and Hi Fructose and elsewhere... Maybe they are compelled to promise an ultra hot up-and-coming artist wealth, fame, and the world in order to get them booked at their gallery.... Whatever it is, they need to make back those spent marketing dollars with a combination of padding the prices on artwork and/or increasing the cut they take from an artist. I know that all varies from gallery to gallery.

BUT what some don't realize is that they're creating a "bubble" that cannot be sustained - at least not with the scene as a whole. Artists such as Mark Ryden, Shepard Fairey, and Audrey Kawasaki have already transcended elite status and will be insulated from economic downturns. They are the exceptions. We're currently in a recession however. Yet a few of the galleries still haven't a clue. They think we're still in the Roaring 20's, post WWII baby boom, dot com tech emergence, or the recent real estate gold rush. Some collectors are wealthy and will always buy everything in sight... and galleries take that into account. But shouldn't we be trying to expand the market a bit..? Isn't that better for the scene as a whole?

The smart galleries and/or artist agents realize that it's better to price your work so that it always sells out, completely. The "lowbrow" or pop surrealism art scene is an insular market. It is heavily reliant on repeat customers. The smarter galleries realize this and keep print editions (and prices) low where necessary... ANd costs for original art work at levels that prevent one's wallet from getting lit up. So back to my point: It's better to have a string of sell out shows, as this creates a buzz on its own. Other galleries take notice, collectors take notice, and maybe you can tentatively test the market by increasing prices at a modest, realistic rate. That's the dignified way of going about it. What's annoying is that in reality there's this "get rich quick" mindset in place...

I'm losing any sense of coherence on this rant... I know. What I'm trying to say is that I sense from the galleries a lot of neglect. Neglect for the buyers. For people that really connect with the art work. [Note: I'm really only referring to a handful of galleries. A couple of dignified galleries are Copro Nason, La Luz de Jesus, The Hive, etc. They are the good guys. I'd rather not mention the other hype machines by name - the ones that greedily jack up prices]

What is sad is when an overly hyped show does not sell out. That is somewhat humiliating to the artist. The rationale here from the gallery is that you can make an equal amount of money by selling to the same 4 or 5 loyal customers at jacked up prices, than you can by selling out the show at reduced prices (totally dispensing with the possibility of expanding the number of new collectors you could bring into the fray). The net benefit is that whatever you can't sell now, you will sell later outside of the show (or through direct marketing - contacting a collector with deep pockets and maybe offering a token discount) - and any money derived from that is just icing on the cake!

But we're at fault too! I am a little annoyed when I hear that people are buying up art work for the mere "rush" of it. REally? If you're not really buying because you love it and connect with it and subconsciously know it says something about you and your own personality when you frame it and display it in your home, then you're harming the market. Whatever. Feed your compulsion if you must, if you've got the wallet for it. You're just another symptom of a consumer culture run amok.

Art is an intense appreciation of life. I read that in an art survey once.

Artists are trying to make a living; commerce is inextricably tied to their work. And depending on the gallery/artist, hype goes hand in hand with that. So I'm not totally naive about this...

Brevity is not a strength of mine. Sorry for the lengthy post.

[irsk]

I'm not even sure if the price hikes are bad... just that the hype causes them.

Overall, "the movement" should become more expensive as it gains more credibility and stature... but that doesn't mean that every single artist should be tripling prices in a year...

Like I said, not sure.

[ck]

entropy said:

But we're at fault too! I am a little annoyed when I hear that people are buying up art work for the mere "rush" of it. REally? If you're not really buying because you love it and connect with it and subconsciously know it says something about you and your own personality when you frame it and display it in your home, then you're harming the market. Whatever. Feed your compulsion if you must, if you've got the wallet for it. You're just another symptom of a consumer culture run amok.

Isn't it good for the market when people purchase no matter the reason? I don't think people buy art for the rush of it alone. I think the rush is just the outcome of waiting for months (sometimes years) on a waiting list for a show and being able to score something you like. At least that's how it is for me. I don't think I connect on a deep level with everything I buy. I just buy what I like and what moves me when I look at it. I like some pieces more than other pieces. Sometimes I even change my mind about them. I'm learning to be more selective as my collection grows. Anyways, who are we to say what the right reasons to buy are. People buy art for different reasons and it's probably always been like that. so what.

[rhinomilk]

it's bad when people buy and are willing to dump the piece at a loss when the artist isn't trendy (think this usually happens when there's too many flippers trying to buy and it creates a false demand... and then the secondary market is flooded and exceeds demand). that's just my thoughts... i'm no expert.

[masao626]

ck said:

entropy said:

But we're at fault too! I am a little annoyed when I hear that people are buying up art work for the mere "rush" of it. REally? If you're not really buying because you love it and connect with it and subconsciously know it says something about you and your own personality when you frame it and display it in your home, then you're harming the market. Whatever. Feed your compulsion if you must, if you've got the wallet for it. You're just another symptom of a consumer culture run amok.

yeah. interesting statement. I wasn't aware that connecting with a piece and buying out of excitement (i.e. "rush"), was a dragging down the market at all

i understood most of what you posted and thought it was a thoughtful post - but that portion strikes close to home when it's the main reason i've ended up with my cherrished collection.

i see it. it sings to me. i don't eat out for a month. repeat the cycle.

sounds pretty solid to me.

as far as hype. KR killed it for me. i'm no less of a ledbetter fan, but i NEVER post anymore about him because i think it adds to cheapening the whole thing.

i miss the days of joyful, humble posting when people were genuinely excited about what they scored and wanted to share it with like minded collectors. now it's just desperate and a popularity contest.

i can't afford certain artists whom i've adored and supported from very early on because some people are in it for the profit (collectors AND galleries).

whatever. i never have anything clever to say in these serious posts

[sleepboy]

masao626 said:

ck said:

yeah. interesting statement. I wasn't aware that connecting with a piece and buying out of excitement (i.e. "rush"), was a dragging down the market at all

i understood most of what you posted and thought it was a thoughtful post - but that portion strikes close to home when it's the main reason i've ended up with my cherrished collection.

i see it. it sings to me. i don't eat out for a month. repeat the cycle.

sounds pretty solid to me.

as far as hype. KR killed it for me. i'm no less of a ledbetter fan, but i NEVER post anymore about him because i think it adds to cheapening the whole thing.

i miss the days of joyful, humble posting when people were genuinely excited about what they scored and wanted to share it with like minded collectors. now it's just desperate and a popularity contest.

i can't afford certain artists whom i've adored and supported from very early on because some people are in it for the profit (collectors AND galleries).

whatever. i never have anything clever to say in these serious posts

i think everyone gets a "rush" from buying something they like right? whether it's a painting, car, or in-and-out hamburger... you make it sound like they don't buy it because they like it but because of the hype but they never said that i think.

[masao626]

are you talking to me or to entropy?

i get confused at 7am.

[entropy]

hi guys... yeah, it's early. I'll reply with something more thoughtful later this afternoon, after work. but please rest assured I meant no ill will to any of my kindred spirits on this board. that includes everyone that replied to my post. I should have tempered that paragraph a bit - the entire "rant" was really targeting the "hype machine". I'll see if I need to elaborate on that... I think some of us simply get swept up in it sometimes and forget why we're buying a particular piece... and in my opinion, if you get pulled into it, then I think you've been victimized. even if we consider it fun. lol. thanks for understanding...

[sleepboy]

masao626 said:

are you talking to me or to entropy?

i get confused at 7am.

lol, to entropy. i think the "quote" function is a little jacked up. it doesn't quote everything, i think it only quotes the last person. but it was about the comment about people who buy just for the "rush." but as you can see, entropy explained themselves in the post above.

[mute]

entropy said:

hi guys... yeah, it's early. I'll reply with something more thoughtful later this afternoon, after work. but please rest assured I meant no ill will to any of my kindred spirits on this board. that includes everyone that replied to my post. I should have tempered that paragraph a bit - the entire "rant" was really targeting the "hype machine". I'll see if I need to elaborate on that... I think some of us simply get swept up in it sometimes and forget why we're buying a particular piece... and in my opinion, if you get pulled into it, then I think you've been victimized. even if we consider it fun. lol. thanks for understanding...

Good, I was worried it might have been my post before yours that was the reason. I didn't mean any disrespect toward Amy's work. I just think I should admire it from afar. That is the only piece I have questioned my love for.

[sleepboy]

mute said:

I got caught up in the "hype" here recently with an artist who is adored on this board and on every other lowbrow art board. I have a feeling I shouldn't even post this because of the flack I might catch for it. But here goes... Amy Sol. That's right, little beloved Amy Sol. Before you rip me a new one here me out. First off, I LOVE Amy's work. It's GREAT. Her pieces capture the feeling of sadness and innocence like no other artist I have seen. I bought one of her prints, "Leaving Downy Cloud Island" , I was excited as hell to get it, the problem came when I was holding it trying to decide where to put in my house. My first thought was the living room. My next thought was hell no it's to "Girlie" for my living room. My next thought after that... Oh f**k! I just spent almost $500 on something that really isn't to my taste. So as much as I had thought I liked her work I didn't really like it enough to own it. So I still have it, I don't have the heart to get rid of it yet, I'm still holding out hope that I'll change my mind about it. Is this understandable? Please don't hate me

LOL. No one should hate you for expressing ur opinion. Besides I have had similar thoughts in the past. I find that artwork that is too cute does not appeal to me... Amy Sol is right at the edge for me. Maybe because some of her creatures look a little fantastical and the fact the girls look a little sad/forlorn allows me to accept her paintings. I find that for me art can be "cute" as long as there is some twist to it... But yah, I can definitely see where you are coming from.

[mute]

admin said:

LOL. No one should hate you for expressing ur opinion. Besides I have had similar thoughts in the past. I find that artwork that is too cute does not appeal to me... Amy Sol is right at the edge for me. Maybe because some of her creatures look a little fantastical and the fact the girls look a little sad/forlorn allows me to accept her paintings. I find that for me art can be "cute" as long as there is some twist to it... But yah, I can definitely see where you are coming from.

Actually, what it is, I think I really wanted "Seapony" instead. Either they didn't have that one anymore so I settled or I changed my mind at the last second. Can't remember.

[entropy]

entropy said:

irsk said:

I don't know where I stand on "hype" other than I think it's responsible for most of the meteoric price hikes between shows.

But we're at fault too! I am a little annoyed when I hear that people are buying up art work for the mere "rush" of it. REally? If you're not really buying because you love it and connect with it and subconsciously know it says something about you and your own personality when you frame it and display it in your home, then you're harming the market. Whatever. Feed your compulsion if you must, if you've got the wallet for it. You're just another symptom of a consumer culture run amok.

Upon re-reading the paragraph in question, I can easily see how it could have been interpreted as a scathing critique of our sometimes irrational behavior ; ) Really, I apologize for any that may have misinterpreted that as an attack. I deeply regret it 'cause I was hoping for a dialogue about all the OTHER points in that post! Talk about undermining one's own self.

Well, although I'd have to concede there's a bit of truth in that paragraph, I assure you it was just a fast attempt at adding some "balance" to the entire post... It's obvious my point is that the greed of a few galleries is potentially undermining the "health" of our art scene... Even well regarded Kirsten Anderson (of Roq La Rue) stated in an interview a few years ago that unfortunately "It's becoming more and more of a money game." She would know the scene better than most as she's the author of the only survey on the lowbrow/pop surrealism movement. It's all speculative on my part as I'm no economics major... But we all know a bit about the psychology of art appreciation. But we're oftentimes oblivious to how THAT is often easily exploited by the "hype machine"

I see we oftentimes jokingly refer to our enthusiasm and passion for art as an "addiction". And I should have plainly seen that the term "rush" was just a logical extension of that metaphor. I guess I didn't make the connection because my initial feelings when securing a sought after painting or limited print is simply elation and great relief!

I feel kinda bad now that some of you felt it was a thinly veiled personal attack! Not so!

Mute, actually, I chuckled to myself when you told your story about the Amy Sol "...Cloud Island" print! Because I've gone through the exact same thing!! Example: Camilla d'Errico has had a few cool pieces in recent shows but some I absolutely didn't consider as purchases: The colors were "too girlie"! Definitely would not feel "right" in my home. Maybe if I had a family (wife, daughter, etc) then it could find a place. I didn't buy Audrey K.'s "Mizuame" for similar reasons! And she's definitely one of my favorites, not to mention it was a potentially unlimited edition!!

Masao626 and ck, there was no need to explain your own art collecting patterns : ) I'm right there with you. I appreciate your replies for sure. Really, I identify with your own reasons for collecting... The reasons for why we collect and appreciate art, including music and literature, it's all personal and no one else's business anyway. I love it that everyone here is open and willing to share...

So back to my initial concerns: I believe the sustained economic downturn currently underway will change things.. I'm just hoping the scene adapts accordingly. Unfortunately, however, I think some of the galleries are still oblivious. I think Sleepboy made a great point in another thread about what happens when collectors at the high end stop buying because they now consider one's artwork a fad, not to mention unaffordable.

The best galleries, and the ones I hope survive, have nurtured relationships with as many potential art collectors as possible - from all ends of the spectrum (even if they only purchase an occasional print) and not just the regulars with deepest pockets and of course the artists. Easier said than done, I know. But one suggestion: Make as much artwork as accessible as possible!

I told you I had a problem with brevity. It's just sloppy writing on my part. Need to keep these posts short somehow...

[tisza2cute]

Hi everyone.. first off, I know this is the wrong thread for it, but thanks for the invite Sleepboy

I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read your post, Mute, because I just recently parted with two of my Amy Sol prints, one was "Leaving Downey Cloud Island", the other was "Music of the Turtles". LDCI and SeaPony of the Moonlight Pond were my first Amy Sol prints ever, in fact, I bought them the night of her opening at Copro Nason (for the Tonight We Travel By Dream show), I had a rough idea of what they cost but I didn't even know exactly, I just handed the girl at the front my credit card and said "ring me up!", lol. It was definitely a rush, so I'm glad to know I'm not the only one here who's experienced this.

I absolutely LOVED the SeaPony print, there was no doubt about that, it was my favorite piece from the show by far, and it's not even that I didn't like Downey Cloud Island, it's just that if I had to pick one or the other, SeaPony would have been it. Since then, I've acquired many more of Amy's prints, including most of her earlier ones, and since I only have so much wall space and funds, I've come to realize I just can't buy EVERY single print that my favorite artists put out, although I was trying to for a while there

This is why I sold my "Music of the Turtles" print too, I ordered it, "Uyi" and "Carrousel Girl" all at once when they were on her site in December, I didn't even think twice about getting them all. I loved Carrousel Girl from the first time I saw it posted on her blog, and Uyi just impressed the h*ll out of me in person, I think part of it is its size, it's simply the PERFECT size, if it had been any larger or smaller it would have lost part of its charm I think.. but I've been staring at Music of Turtles for months now and just couldn't get into it (I know I'll be stoned to death for saying this, I realize this is a perennial favorite!). In fact, this may sound VERY strange, I'd be interested to know if anyone else feels this way, but actually.. the image just sort of made me sad. Perhaps it was the melancholy expression on the girl's face, I just can't pinpoint why I wasn't crazy about it, but I wasn't, so I've since parted with it. At one point I thought maybe it was the size, b/c it's one of her smaller prints, but no, Carrousel Girl is the same size and I just love those cuddly creatures, you couldn't pry that print away from me if you tried!

Wow, I've completely gone off the topic I think, lol, sorry for the rant. I guess my point is that you just can't buy every single piece an artist releases, and really, you shouldn't. You should be discriminating and buy the ones you absolutely LOVE, because really this isn't a competition to see who can collect them all first, it should be about looking at a piece on your wall that just makes your heart happy, and now I can truly say that every piece I own really does, they just make me smile.

On a side note, I picked up the 2 prints she released yesterday, Amaranthine is just AMAZING, and The Apple and the String, well, what can I say.. a flying bear, little elephants, butterflies, it's simply magical... I know I'll be back for the next round of her prints, between her, Audrey, Kukula, and a few other artists, wow, they're just slowly draining my accounts, lol, but it's a small price to pay for pure delight.

[richardtharbaugh]

I think that most of the 'hype' going on in the "low brow" scene nowadays can be dissected into several subcategories. Single collector/reseller-created hype, gallery-created hype, and publication-created hype.

Single collectors aren't going to push an artists' career or prices too far into any direction - but, publication-created, and especially gallery-created hype can cause BIG price jumps REAL fast - and leave big shoes for the 'hyped' artists to fill.

I've written an essay or two on it before, and I won't go that far here - but, I'd say - be very mindful of where you're buying your art - pay attention to how the prices are set - and how much art from particular shows / artists / galleries ends up FLOODING the secondary market inside of the year after the show comes off the gallery walls.

There are some places I won't spend money at, because of their involvement in the 'hype' process, and some artists' whose work I won't touch, because, even though I love it, the "inside" hype machine has driven their prices to levels that I don't think will be able to grow or sustain in the next couple years, let alone the long term. Sucks for me, but not nearly as much as it might for the "over-hyped" artists.

[travislouie]

this is a very interesting discussion, . . .I've been following the career paths of several artists in the last couple of years and the "hype-machine" is an issue. I remember a certain cover artist, whose original paintings were available at conventions for between $1000 and $2500
(actual cover illustrations went for more because of their significance to the genre magazines he did covers for), . . . and then a Beverly Hills Gallery sold one of his pieces to Nicholas Cage for $30,000, . . . now his whole collector-base can't afford his work. Incidentally, I was told that Mr. Cage visited Rob Zombie and asked him what he paid for his painting from this artist, . . . when he found out it was only about a third what he paid, he was pretty pissed off!

[jimandtara]

Hey Travis (assuming this is THE Travis)

Welcome to the boards my friend - looking forward to your input!

jIm

[travislouie]

thanks Jim!
It's fun reading this info.
I was forwarded a link to this forum from one of my collectors.
I visited him this afternoon, . . . he bought a 16"x20" oval commission from me and we discussed this very theme, . . . the "over-hyped artist"
I think time decides, . . .some magazine articles help too, . . . the galleries can only do so much to hype an artist, . . .I think timing is a factor as well.

[jimandtara]

Jul 23, 2008 20:38:14 GMT -8 travislouie said:

thanks Jim!
It's fun reading this info.
I was forwarded a link to this forum from one of my collectors.
I visited him this afternoon, . . . he bought a 16"x20" oval commission from me and we discussed this very theme, . . . the "over-hyped artist"
I think time decides, . . .some magazine articles help too, . . . the galleries can only do so much to hype an artist, . . .I think timing is a factor as well.

Travis -

I agree - time is the most powerful leveling factor. One way to immune oneself to hype and to insulate yourself from its potential pitfalls - buy what YOU like, unconditionally.

BTW - looking forward to the arrival of "Bricktop..."

jIm

[travislouie]

I think respect is more important than hype
Hype is not quality, . . .hype is marketing, . . .always go with your gut!
If something looks like it is not very good, . . .it's probably not very good, no matter who is telling you it is.

BTW Jim,
i'm glad it's going to a good home!

[commandax]

"Don't believe the hype!" (Bump for discussion.)