|
Post by chetzar on Jul 23, 2009 17:40:27 GMT -8
Sleepboy, you are being way too kind. This is a total rip off. And what's worse is the fact that he does not even come close to the talent and ability of somebody like Foster. This is the kind of shit that really gets my goat.
Artists like this should be shunned. What a hack.
|
|
|
Post by shelly on Jul 23, 2009 17:41:47 GMT -8
Wow that really sucks. Im positive sam was borrowing old masters composition in his previous paintings. I remember seeing several in art history class that were extremely similar to sam. But using a living artist composition is bellow the belt. I think composing a painting is the hardest and most consuming part. Sam must be really lazy or cannot compose a painting on his own.
|
|
|
Post by greenhorn1 on Jul 24, 2009 5:09:55 GMT -8
Sleepboy, you are being way too kind. This is a total rip off. And what's worse is the fact that he does not even come close to the talent and ability of somebody like Foster. This is the kind of shit that really gets my goat. Artists like this should be shunned. What a hack. yeah this pretty much sums up my feelings on it. When I first saw the flores print I thought about buying it. VERY glad I decided to pass now.
|
|
|
Post by jediak on Jul 24, 2009 5:34:01 GMT -8
I was going to post on OMG posters but I didn't want to feed the beast so to speak, Jon made his views clear. These situations bring out the scene police and that's a lot more ugly to me. He doesn’t need people defending his honor least of all faceless strangers sitting behind their computers. I come to the Artchival forums so I can avoid this type of garbage, I see this site as a bit of a filter and safe haven from discussions like the ones going on on OMG with Flores right now and similarly with each new Shepard Fairey release (although it’s not quite the same the ugliness that emerges through peoples comments is no different.) This type of talk already drove me away from that site I’d hate to see the same thing happen here. I know each case is different and it’s great that people can express their opinions but it’s all a bit too self righteous for my taste, Flores is a great artist, and obviously Jon is one as well but I’m with Sleepyboy on this one, Sam is guilty of laziness and maybe the law will find it to be even more then laziness but until everyone else gets a badge shut the F up* and put down your pitchforks as none of us are the elected defenders of all that’s good and true in the world…. that’s my two cents if anyone cares.
|
|
|
Post by evilchoy on Jul 24, 2009 6:51:57 GMT -8
not really the post should be about the artist not about what you hate about opinions....whatever....
|
|
|
Post by chetzar on Jul 24, 2009 7:08:50 GMT -8
I was going to post on OMG posters but I didn't want to feed the beast so to speak, Jon made his views clear. These situations bring out the scene police and that's a lot more ugly to me. He doesn’t need people defending his honor least of all faceless strangers sitting behind their computers. I come to the Artchival forums so I can avoid this type of garbage, I see this site as a bit of a filter and safe haven from discussions like the ones going on on OMG with Flores right now and similarly with each new Shepard Fairey release (although it’s not quite the same the ugliness that emerges through peoples comments is no different.) This type of talk already drove me away from that site I’d hate to see the same thing happen here. I know each case is different and it’s great that people can express their opinions but it’s all a bit too self righteous for my taste, Flores is a great artist, and obviously Jon is one as well but I’m with Sleepyboy on this one, Sam is guilty of laziness and maybe the law will find it to be even more then laziness but until everyone else gets a badge shut the F up* and put down your pitchforks as none of us are the elected defenders of all that’s good and true in the world…. that’s my two cents if anyone cares. Well, you fed the beast here. As an artist, I feel like not only do I have a right to speak out but also a responsibility to do so. We as artists work very hard to make sure our work is as original as possible and when somebody rips off another artist, it just sickens me. It's a cynical move and shows an attitude of utter contempt for his collectors. I mean, when something like this happens, it's you guys who are getting screwed the hardest. You gave this guy your hard earned money to support this guy's work, and it turns it's not even his. And being in contact with a lot of artists in this scene, I can tell you that a majority of them feel the same way about this kind of thing. We talk about this stuff all the time. And it is not laziness- it's plagiarism. And it's plagiarism of one artist who is not even in the same league as the other, which makes it even worse. Sam Flores is not even in the same league as Foster. Jon Foster is a bad ass painter. He has put the time and hard work in to become a really successful illustrator. Look at the guy's website: www.jonfoster.com/. To us, this is a kind of moral issue. Any artist knows that you don't copy another artist's work. It's at the top of the list of the artist's no no's. Ask one next time you see him or her. And one final note on why this pisses me off so much- I could cut the guy some slack if he unconsciously lifted his idea or was even just inspired by his piece but he basically traced the thing down to the very last branch. Uggh.
|
|
|
Post by jediak on Jul 24, 2009 7:22:05 GMT -8
Still feel exactly the same after reading this, sorry just the way I feel.
|
|
|
Post by greenhorn1 on Jul 24, 2009 7:56:50 GMT -8
These situations bring out the scene police and that's a lot more ugly to me. He doesn’t need people defending his honor least of all faceless strangers sitting behind their computers. To a certain extent, I get your point. The internet is full of people willing to unload on anything and everything even if it has nothing to do with them. And that gets very tiring. But in this case I believe it is warranted, and I don't think anyone is trying to defend Jon's honor. I think they're trying to keep other collectors from getting screwed by a plagarist. I guess we just have conflicting opinions but I DO feel like this needs to be discussed and brought to light in as many places as possible because it's important. What flores did was just flat out wrong. There's no grey area about it and it goes far beyond laziness IMO.
|
|
|
Post by evilchoy on Jul 24, 2009 8:01:22 GMT -8
Jediack Stupid question but do you own a copy of the print or the original?
|
|
|
Post by jediak on Jul 24, 2009 8:40:36 GMT -8
Evilchoy, I own a copy of the print but this for me is not about the right or wrong issue, my issues is about what’s going on around it, it's about third parties coming off as self righteous and playing morality police. It truly bothers me to the same level that this actual act bothers some people it would seem. I think Cheztar has some good points as I would hope some can see mine but along those points came some that fit my criticisms of sounding somewhat self righteous (and I wish we were having this conversation face to face because I have nothing against you personally chetzar). As someone who does not know you personally saying things like ask other artists and we artists discuss this and feel... can come off as a little holier than thou to a reader (my wife is an artist, many of my friends are artists) and before I dig myself into a bigger hole it was never even about people on this board it was the gang mentality you see on other sites where everyone seems out for blood when the very person who is involved in the controversy hasn’t been as aggressive or hostile in their words or actions. I really don’t want this to become a shit storm of he said she said as that would be transforming this into the very thing I was commenting on in the first place. I chose to respond earlier with I still feel the same way so it wouldn’t go there but I felt it was important to express my views on this story because I have read plenty of them from the other side in the last 24 hours and maybe someone else out there feels like I do that when attacks of a personal nature are accruing then those involved should be personally involved and it shouldn’t be a free for all! Thanks for listening.
|
|
|
Post by jediak on Jul 24, 2009 8:57:07 GMT -8
One last thing.. Maybe I've just gotten older and don't have the fire in me for this type of stuff anymore but I find I rarely feel good about myself after I've talked shit about anyone or anything and a better way of expressing my view in this matter might be that I find this situation to involve a lot of shit talking and that saddens me. Why the loss of karma points? I’m expressing a viewpoint in a civil manner here and am in fact speaking of karma of all things
|
|
|
Post by chetzar on Jul 24, 2009 9:17:53 GMT -8
Evilchoy, I own a copy of the print but this for me is not about the right or wrong issue, my issues is about what’s going on around it, it's about third parties coming off as self righteous and playing morality police. It truly bothers me to the same level that this actual act bothers some people it would seem. I think Cheztar has some good points as I would hope some can see mine but along those points came some that fit my criticisms of sounding somewhat self righteous (and I wish we were having this conversation face to face because I have nothing against you personally chetzar). As someone who does not know you personally saying things like ask other artists and we artists discuss this and feel... can come off as a little holier than thou to a reader (my wife is an artist, many of my friends are artists) and before I dig myself into a bigger hole it was never even about people on this board it was the gang mentality you see on other sites where everyone seems out for blood when the very person who is involved in the controversy hasn’t been as aggressive or hostile in their words or actions. I really don’t want this to become a shit storm of he said she said as that would be transforming this into the very thing I was commenting on in the first place. I chose to respond earlier with I still feel the same way so it wouldn’t go there but I felt it was important to express my views on this story because I have read plenty of them from the other side in the last 24 hours and maybe someone else out there feels like I do that when attacks of a personal nature are accruing then those involved should be personally involved and it shouldn’t be a free for all! Thanks for listening. I agree with your point about the gang mentality on other boards. Oftentimes they really lack much thought and constructive criticism and people do say things they would not normally hiding behind anonymity. But I want to point out that on my posts I put my full name and website. I fully stand behind my statements. I'm bummed you felt I was being holier than thou. That was certainly not my intention. I don't feel like I am above collectors or anybody else for that matter. In fact, I feel like artists and collectors have a symbiotic relationship. One could not exist in any substantial way without the other and I fully appreciate that (which is why I treat my collectors really well). But I do feel like I know art and I know artists and I am just telling you that this is the kind of stuff we talk about, my point being that most artists feel the way I do about artists copying other artists work. I think because I talk to many other artists that I probably have a more 'insiders view'. I don't see how that is holier than thou. I also feel compelled to speak out because we, as artists, are like a family. We have no health insurance or benefits and most of us barely make enough money from our artwork to survive. That means we need to look out for each other and when somebody from within the family is stealing from another, that artist should be held accountable because he is leeching off of another artists hard work and creativity. It only hurts us and like I said, we need all the support we can get because making a living as an artist is very difficult and very scary financially. I don't think any artist would disagree with me on those points. Except maybe Sam Flores.
|
|
|
Post by chetzar on Jul 24, 2009 9:32:34 GMT -8
And for anybody who doesn't think it's a total rip off, look what somebody just posted on that other board:
|
|
|
Post by commandax on Jul 24, 2009 10:53:52 GMT -8
I would be soooooo upset if this came out about one of the artists I collect. My condolences to everyone who's bought his originals. You acted in good faith and out of love and respect, and this is how you're repaid.
|
|
|
Post by richardtharbaugh on Jul 24, 2009 10:54:14 GMT -8
Who'd have ever thought that an artist who traces existing work to produce their own would ever get shown in Shepard Fairey's gallery!? Car-azy!
|
|
|
Post by masao626 on Jul 24, 2009 11:04:22 GMT -8
this sh*t makes me so tired. i long for the days where i could browse gallery inventories and shows, fall in love with a piece for the sake of it's unique appeal to me and hang it on my walls, feeling like i own a special, one-of-a-kind piece of the artist.
i have little desire to research artists or their "influences", education levels, etc as a means of qualifying whether or not it's "safe" to purchase from them (especially when opinions differ so greatly on what is acceptable imitation and what is flat out fraud and theft).
collecting isn't a business to me, it's pure emotion and joy. and lately i've felt completely disillusioned and insecure about making purchases.
incidentally, add my 2 flores pieces to the list of works in my collection that i'm wondering what to do about.
|
|
|
Post by svenman on Jul 24, 2009 12:54:09 GMT -8
i hate it when this shit happens. big f*cking let-down sam flores.
as walter sobchak said - this is not 'nam, this is bowling, there are rules.
oh, and funny comment carcrash!
|
|
|
Post by oldfartatplay on Jul 24, 2009 13:15:56 GMT -8
I am just shocked that someone would do this. I'm not a fan of Flores but I feel bad for his fans and people that have put faith in him by collecting his work.
All I can think of is "why?". Why take another artists image and use it like that. Imagination is limitless, infinite, as is our ability to create.
|
|
|
Post by thecreep on Jul 24, 2009 13:43:17 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by shelly on Jul 24, 2009 17:17:16 GMT -8
Chet Zar I always like your work, but after reading what you have to say about this matter I now love your work. This kind of thing cannot be tolerated! And it makes me sick to my stomach when someone thinks that it's o.k to do stuff like this. Shepard, Chris Berens and hundreds of artist steal composition of paintings. But those artist are all dead. Never steal from a living working artist!!
|
|
|
Post by ericfortune on Jul 26, 2009 0:54:47 GMT -8
I'm totally with Chet on this. Not cool at all.
|
|
|
Post by Bytor on Jul 26, 2009 10:57:04 GMT -8
as walter sobchak said - this is not 'nam, this is bowling, there are rules. That is to funny, but so true
|
|
|
Post by devours on Jul 26, 2009 21:37:49 GMT -8
I saw this on omg last week and was waiting to see if Mr Flores would come forward. It got me so irritated and I have no interest in buying any vinyl of his again. Plagiarism is offensive. Fucks with the artist he is ripping off, as well as his fans who trust they are purchasing original and creative material. Or are we not meant to view him as an artist from now on?
|
|
|
Post by kristahuot on Jul 26, 2009 22:01:25 GMT -8
It's best to just go up into a tree with a camera, in my opinion. People will always find out about these things, and anyway... what is fun about copying somebody else's painting?!
|
|
|
Post by origo on Jul 27, 2009 0:39:24 GMT -8
What I really don´t get about this is, he must have been aware of the risk of being caught.
Why take the chance? It seems like he has been quite productive in the past, have a pretty solid fanbase, so why steal other peoples work and risk all that?
Seems like a very dumb move to me.
|
|