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Post by WillNyc on Jul 28, 2013 18:53:28 GMT -8
Those are the pieces from Eleven Rivington. (in between screens) Ahh you are right! |
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Post by pokymoll on Sept 9, 2013 0:28:58 GMT -8
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Post by WillNyc on Sept 9, 2013 12:48:12 GMT -8
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 20, 2013 10:33:20 GMT -8
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Post by drevil on Oct 20, 2013 11:42:47 GMT -8
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Post by artcubed on Oct 21, 2013 1:55:02 GMT -8
Not really seeing it's a small piece and already up to $15k (against an estimate of $1.5k - although admittedly this was very conservative given demand for his work at the mo)! |
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 21, 2013 6:29:43 GMT -8
Not really seeing it's a small piece and already up to $15k (against an estimate of $1.5k - although admittedly this was very conservative given demand for his work at the mo)! You are Right... price went immediately up! |
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Post by ricosg11 on Oct 21, 2013 8:10:56 GMT -8
that's insane. People have more money than sense.
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Post by volvic on Oct 21, 2013 8:12:36 GMT -8
i would be very surprised if that is a real bid.
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Post by simococo on Oct 21, 2013 8:15:30 GMT -8
It must be a mistake......
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80
Junior Member
Posts: 54 
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Post by 80 on Oct 21, 2013 11:48:44 GMT -8
i would be very surprised if that is a real bid. Says that there were 37 bids leading up to it, so who knows. Would be nice if Paddle8 was a bit more transparent. |
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 21, 2013 23:23:43 GMT -8
Meanwhile... In my dining room  I love those ones!! Congrats. I guess the bids are real. Interest around this artist is crazy at the moment. I am personally trying to get a piece (at a normal price!) and it seems impossible. |
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Post by paulypaul on Oct 21, 2013 23:43:15 GMT -8
i would be very surprised if that is a real bid. Says that there were 37 bids leading up to it, so who knows. Would be nice if Paddle8 was a bit more transparent. I struggle to take Paddle8 seriously due to the complete lack of transparency. Has anyone bought through them? |
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 22, 2013 1:44:41 GMT -8
What do you mean by lack of transparency? Prices are public during the auction days. Bidding is easy and open.
Final prices are not published but this doesn't mean, to me, a lack of transparency. Those are just silent auctions.
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Post by volvic on Oct 22, 2013 3:08:22 GMT -8
I think 15k is about 40% too high for a small one. unless of course someone has more money than sense but i find that hard to believe when bidding on such a new and untested artist. The only real people who want this guy are in the know collectors / advisors and knowledgable art types. Oh and FYI i hear the guy who started paddle 8 is very chummy with israel...just saying!
Waltercrunk - Love those....
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 22, 2013 4:52:02 GMT -8
Guess those kind of conjectures could be easily addressed to any kind of auction... actually, I would not be surprised to hear that several results in public auctions are "manouvered".
Even if I am not informed about this specific paddle8 auction, it's the first time I hear something like that.
It would be quite courious if what you are saying would be correct, since, if I am not wrong, the final result of a paddle8 auction is not public.
In a few days, there will be piece from Israel Lund in the two for two aids auction and there will be another chance to test the market.
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Post by afroken on Oct 22, 2013 7:01:38 GMT -8
Says that there were 37 bids leading up to it, so who knows. Would be nice if Paddle8 was a bit more transparent. I struggle to take Paddle8 seriously due to the complete lack of transparency. Has anyone bought through them? I've successfully bought a piece on Paddle8 and even then I wasn't sure if I'd won until they contacted me a couple hours after the auction finished, despite watching the auction to the end. On another occasion I thought I had won but can only assume I didn't as I was never contacted. Not the best user experience. |
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Post by paulypaul on Oct 22, 2013 7:36:50 GMT -8
Final prices are not published That's exactly what I mean. Can't see what has passed and what prices were reached. Obviously, regular auctions are open to manipulation, but this feels like a step even further... |
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Post by drevil on Oct 22, 2013 8:14:22 GMT -8
If you approach this particular auction piece with an ounce of common sense it is pretty clear that this is just market manipulation, not supply and demand (sorry Waltercrunk), much like what has occurred at the primary auction houses for years. Paddle 8 just provides a platform for that manipulation to occur more publicly across the charity auction circuit.
Paddle 8 may also be serving as a way for the manipulators to set a psychological floor on the price of a particular artist's work before moving to the primary houses with more substantial work from the same artist. Often these charity auctions have relatively minor pieces such as this one which are estimated at relatively lower prices. They get people thinking that if such a little meh work can justify such a high price, then how much would a bigger, better work bring at a primary house? I found myself doing just this after a small Sam Falls work on paper recently finished on Paddle 8 at $10k against a $4k estimate. Before Paddle 8 that would have been much, much less likely to happen because it is unlikely I would have even been aware of that particular charity auction, let alone that particular Falls work.
Paddle 8 is just another tool in the tool bag of someone working to hype a particular artist, but with a (likely) lower upfront cost than would have been required at a primary house in the past. Overall I think Paddle 8 is great as I get to see so much more art (and the respective prices) with little effort on my end jumping through the typical gallery hoops, but you need to keep your wits about you and try to approach it as objectively as possible (which is of course hard to do).
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 22, 2013 8:44:38 GMT -8
If you approach this particular auction piece with an ounce of common sense it is pretty clear that this is just market manipulation, not supply and demand (sorry Waltercrunk), much like what has occurred at the primary auction houses for years. Paddle 8 just provides a platform for that manipulation to occur more publicly across the charity auction circuit. Paddle 8 may also be serving as a way for the manipulators to set a psychological floor on the price of a particular artist's work before moving to the primary houses with more substantial work from the same artist. Often these charity auctions have relatively minor pieces such as this one which are estimated at relatively lower prices. They get people thinking that if such a little meh work can justify such a high price, then how much would a bigger, better work bring at a primary house? I found myself doing just this after a small Sam Falls work on paper recently finished on Paddle 8 at $10k against a $4k estimate. Before Paddle 8 that would have been much, much less likely to happen because it is unlikely I would have even been aware of that particular charity auction, let alone that particular Falls work. Paddle 8 is just another tool in the tool bag of someone working to hype a particular artist, but with a (likely) lower upfront cost than would have been required at a primary house in the past. Overall I think Paddle 8 is great as I get to see so much more art (and the respective prices) with little effort on my end jumping through the typical gallery hoops, but you need to keep your wits about you and try to approach it as objectively as possible (which is of course hard to do). I see, and I agree but I also think that those kind of manipulations could be easyer with a standard/classical auction house, where results are public. I don't think it is as well effective in an auction with silent results (like paddle8). How could a silent result influence market? And, also, in a classical auction, in case of manipulations, the seller (a gallery??) can sell a piece at a crazy price, but the money in the end come back to the seller himself. In the paddle8 case, instead, the money will go elsewere (to a charity organization etc.). the manipulator is just loosing 15.000 usd for a silent auction? Who could care about it?? So, even if I agree that price si super high I also think that it could be just reality. To be honest, after Murillo's 400k, I don't think this is so crazy. |
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Post by drevil on Oct 22, 2013 10:02:05 GMT -8
If you approach this particular auction piece with an ounce of common sense it is pretty clear that this is just market manipulation, not supply and demand (sorry Waltercrunk), much like what has occurred at the primary auction houses for years. Paddle 8 just provides a platform for that manipulation to occur more publicly across the charity auction circuit. Paddle 8 may also be serving as a way for the manipulators to set a psychological floor on the price of a particular artist's work before moving to the primary houses with more substantial work from the same artist. Often these charity auctions have relatively minor pieces such as this one which are estimated at relatively lower prices. They get people thinking that if such a little meh work can justify such a high price, then how much would a bigger, better work bring at a primary house? I found myself doing just this after a small Sam Falls work on paper recently finished on Paddle 8 at $10k against a $4k estimate. Before Paddle 8 that would have been much, much less likely to happen because it is unlikely I would have even been aware of that particular charity auction, let alone that particular Falls work. Paddle 8 is just another tool in the tool bag of someone working to hype a particular artist, but with a (likely) lower upfront cost than would have been required at a primary house in the past. Overall I think Paddle 8 is great as I get to see so much more art (and the respective prices) with little effort on my end jumping through the typical gallery hoops, but you need to keep your wits about you and try to approach it as objectively as possible (which is of course hard to do). I see, and I agree but I also think that those kind of manipulations could be easyer with a standard/classical auction house, where results are public. I don't think it is as well effective in an auction with silent results (like paddle8). How could a silent result influence market? And, also, in a classical auction, in case of manipulations, the seller (a gallery??) can sell a piece at a crazy price, but the money in the end come back to the seller himself. In the paddle8 case, instead, the money will go elsewere (to a charity organization etc.). the manipulator is just loosing 15.000 usd for a silent auction? Who could care about it?? So, even if I agree that price si super high I also think that it could be just reality. To be honest, after Murillo's 400k, I don't think this is so crazy. "How could a silent result influence market?" Look around you at all the talk this is generating even on this relatively insignificant message board. The end result is secondary to the buzz being created right now and the eyes seeing "$15,000" every day in association with Lund's name. I doubt the needle moves much more past $15k, if at all. Why do you think it got there so far before the end of the auction period? Wouldn't you expect a real bidder to put their strongest bid forward at the very end? If I really wanted this piece that is what I would do to better ensure I actually got it. It seems the goal in this particular instance is different. |
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Post by waltercrunk on Oct 22, 2013 10:27:20 GMT -8
I struggle to take Paddle8 seriously due to the complete lack of transparency. Has anyone bought through them? I've successfully bought a piece on Paddle8 and even then I wasn't sure if I'd won until they contacted me a couple hours after the auction finished, despite watching the auction to the end. On another occasion I thought I had won but can only assume I didn't as I was never contacted. Not the best user experience. I also bought from Paddle 8, and would agree. In the dark and found myself emailing questions frequently. Though the answers came swiftly. Had they been provided in the context of the site to begin with, maybe a more enjoyable experience. Oh... And directly from the Paddle8 site: " How do themed auctions work?Paddle8's themed auction commission structure is significantly discounted from market standards: a flat 6% for vendors and 12% for buyers. Other costs, including shipping, insurance, and storage are minimized or eliminated by shipping artworks directly from sellers without intermediaries. This reduces costs for sellers and creates transparency and ease of purchase for buyers. Paddle8 does not disclose sales records publicly, so consignors can offer works anonymously without the fear of "burning" works if unsold." |
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Post by artladval on Oct 22, 2013 10:36:30 GMT -8
Keep in mind that since the result isn't published, it isn't added into the artist's auction record, so when people research him, they don't see it in the database. The money has to ultimately be paid to the charity (someone mentioned this)..it's not simply a transfer from one collector party to the next, where they only lose out on commission costs like in a private consignment lot. Since it's a benefit sale, there's a charity premium that should be factored in. Someone may really want to contribute to this cause and chose this piece as their target. See Leonardo DiCaprio's last high profile auction, where artists records were being broken left and right and up an down. Consider that there are tax benefits at the final bid over the cost of the retail price.
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Post by drevil on Oct 22, 2013 10:51:03 GMT -8
A quick (fictional...) example:
Assume that the gallery is bidding on this and driving up the price. They donated it so they will get a tax deduction for that initial donation value. They will also get a tax deduction for the difference between the estimate and the final price (which is 10x here already, so not insignificant). Then they win and get the painting back which they can then resell later on and point to this charity auction as a comp if desired. So the gallery gets two tax breaks and the original work itself back with a new price point established for the re-sale of that same exact work. The only downside is that there is no written record of the final result, as has been stated here. However, this message board is overcoming that problem as we speak by talking about the $15k mark; something that is pretty easily found using google.
But the biggest upside for the gallery would be that they have now moved the price point up for Lund's work across the board going forward. Profit baby.
Congrats to all.
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Post by artladval on Oct 22, 2013 10:58:37 GMT -8
A quick (fictional...) example: Assume that the gallery is bidding on this and driving up the price. They donated it so they will get a tax deduction for that initial donation value. They will also get a tax deduction for the difference between the estimate and the final price (which is 10x here already, so not insignificant). Then they win and get the painting back which they can then resell later on and point to this charity auction as a comp if desired. So the gallery gets two tax breaks and the original work itself back with a new price point established for the re-sale of that same exact work. The only downside is that there is no written record of the final result, as has been stated here. However, this message board is overcoming that problem as we speak by talking about the $15k mark; something that is pretty easily found using google. But the biggest upside for the gallery would be that they have now moved the price point up for Lund's work across the board going forward. Profit baby. Congrats to all. The price (like that of any artist at this stage and attention of their career) of Israel Lund's work is carefully considered and executed. They have to weigh the long-term cause and effect of putting the work at any price. They can pretty much ask whatever (to a degree) and still sell out. That's not the point right now. They do not need a high auction price to justify a certain primary price because that result is not relevant to their pricing strategies. He's not someone like MBW (no offense to fans of his work) where they need to strike when the iron is hot because there won't be another time. He's got his entire career ahead of him. |
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