Fine art, or just illustration?

[thecreep]

This is a topic I have wanted to talk about on the Creep Machine for a while, but after my talk (argument) with a professor today, I need to hear what you all think.

The discussion was after I showed him a few books, "Weirdo Deluxe", Glenn Barr, Phil Hale, etc etc. While thumbing through them, quickly I might add, he just gave a quick "pfff" and said "this is all just illustration". Implying I guess, that none of it is fine art.

Would you agree? All of the work, from the many artists in this scene that we love, or not, are they all just illustrators and should not be labeled "fine art". I also think the label "fine art" is very subjective and what it means to be a painter is as well, but I didn't feel like throwing more wood on the fire in todays argument

[summeroakley]

I am SO GLAD you started this thread!

It has long been an issue for me that art (such as the artists this board supports) is deemed "mere illustration" or "too graphic & commercial" to qualify as fine. I was on scholarship in art school ... struggling against professors who kept chastising me that my work was far too "illustrative" in style ... I finally quit. I love art that tells a story! I love art that inspires stories in my mind! Why is the fact that a painting has commercial appeal a negative trait as far as the high & lofty art world is concerned?

I have followed Audrey Kawasaki since she first started out (when she wasn't well known) and the thing that I have most loved in following her is that she's proven that someone who has an "illustrative" nature can conquer the art world. The entire low brow movement has given a new life to my own artwork ... I feel like FINALLY we are seeing people buck the obnoxious standards of the collegiate art world and embrace art they can actually relate and respond to in such a vibrant way. I still love the higher brow stuff, too ... I just think the low-brow has as much to bring to the table.

I'm rambling ... I just wanted to echo your feeling and confusion. Phil Hale is a masterful painter. So are many of the artists we love on this board. Kent Williams is one of those few who seems to have managed to win the adoration of art critics and comic fans alike. I remember reading years ago that Norman Rockwell went to his grave feeling like a failure because he was called "an illustrator" his entire career and could never get the fine art realm to embrace him on the level he deserved. Obviously in recent years he's seen as the incredible painter that he truly was.

I feel like the Low Brow movement is helping defeat the old sentiments of people like your professor. Sure, there are cranky art world people who want to turn up their nose and condemn what is more commercial and readily accessible to the common folk ... but the sales and the massive turnouts at shows is a clear indication that people are excited about art that they can both relate to ... and that tells some sort of story. I love it. Eventually those who want to scoff at it's value (like your professor) are sure to become the rarer breed. That's my hope anyway.

[dangler]

Hey Josh, - you raise some fantastic questions... I'm also glad you brought this up, as it has been a hot debate in art schools for quite some time.

Being that I have been in this argument at least a dozen times with fellow illustrators and exclusive gallery artists I have a pretty good idea that it is mostly a misconception of the word "illustration." Illustration by definition is a picture that tells a story or clarifies a point etc. Paintings that tell a story are illustrations then... pretty black and white. Seasoned professors and gallery artists associate the word "illustration" with the art in contemporary picture books and editorial work we see every day. Which unfortunately is usually just a quick cheap solution that has no real depth and wouldn't be substantial standing alone without the text to support it. This is due to deadlines being more demanding then ever and etc. So... the point being that it just depends on the persons perception of "illustration" - I don't think anyone can deny that story telling enhances a painting.

So... with that clarified... I do believe a lot of art that is popular in today's market is a quick fix that won't last over time... you know, trends... or fancy wallpaper. In that regard I understand the nature of what your professor was expressing... although don't get me wrong, I am not saying that I personally don't think that the artists work that you mentioned isn't great.

I personally have certain standards of what I consider "fine art"... and it most likely is leaning towards your professor's views. Rembrandt produces fine art... so not getting too specific and pointing fingers, when deciding what is fine art or not I personally would compare the piece to someone like Rembrandt, or an old master, painting's that were produced with the highest level of skill and sophistication applied in every way. There needs to be sacred things in this world... "fine art" is one of them... to me.

... very subjective... it all comes down to what a person thinks "fine art" and "illustration" mean.

[ahertel]

Very subjective. I agree with Matt on that one.
I am comfortable with thinking that Illustrations are meant to create a visual language that highlight or reinforce a non-visual idea.
I think the way that your Prof. used it was an out dated, old academic, post-modern way of saying that although well painted it somehow lacks substance or concept.
Remember that in todays high art world idea is king and the hand of the artists has little or nothing to do with it.

[travislouie]

okay, . . I'll bite, . . .I think your professor assumes too much, . . .
When I say that, I mean he has no business, blanket labeling something because he doesn't like it or can't relate to it.
He should have a more open mind. That's the point isn't it? As a teacher of art, you must have an open mind.
I've been doing this for almost 20 years, . . on both ends, . . .does your professor navigate the gallery world?, . . .does he have any real working experience as an illustrator doing freelance work?, . . .has he made a real contribution to either field? It's disrespectful, . . .
Can he paint?, . . .does he just stand on the shoulders of the art criticism writers before him and spout their propaganda?
Does he have the respect of his peers in the fine art world? it's kind of an old argument that holds no water with me
about what art is and how illustration is not fine art because of it's narrative nature?
Rembrandt, Caravaggio, Ribera, Jan Van Eyck, Vermeer, etc, . . .all did narrative work
The reference to the quality of an artwork based on it's original use is a moot point.
A Fine artwork is one that transcends that distinction and on face value has the capacity to connect to the viewer as a quality artwork despite it's original intended use. Not all illustration is fine art, . . . that is understood, . . . but some of it is.
Norman Rockwell painted over 2000 illustrations in his lifetime, at least a handful of those paintings are fine art masterworks.
In today's high art world, those with the "means" decide what a fine artwork is, . . .they want us to think it is all about the concept, . . .it's about the marketing actually. If you are able to convince the right people who have influence, that something has a perceived value, . . .that's all it takes, . . .quality is too subjective in that business.

[virtu]

Norman Rockwell knocked down the wall that separated Illustration from Fine Art.
Personally think fine art is more about your ability than the medium.
Iv found artist who cannot draw/illustrate are pretty crappy painters.

"Those Who Can't Paint Teach Painting"

[ahertel]

Ouch. I teach painting.
Doesn't it seem that the move towards more narrative work may be a reaction to the point of view that there is a distinction between fine art and illustration? It is an elite school of thought that has been around for too long and I think that it is clear that artists have had success in challenging that idea.

[dangler]

My own bias in a more compact way of saying it - is great illustration is great painting... great painting is fine art to me. Travis Louie nailed it though, what makes art "quality" is too subjective, I think this thread has been pretty resolved. I really enjoyed reading through everyones replies... I feel that basically everyone is on the same page, we just all have a different way of expressing it.

[steveinca]

From a strictly collector's stand point i feel that a lot of "lowbrow" artists' work does resemble illustration. I tend to stay away from buying pieces by artists i feel lean more toward illustration. Regarding the artists who have posted a response to this topic, I have several pieces of Matt's, one piece from Ahren and one Travis piece. I feel that you all create true fine art pieces, far from illustration. One of the main reasons i'm an avid Hussar collector and fan of Matt's work is because their pieces are a balance and mixture of "lowbrow" art as well as older influenced pieces...if that makes sense.

[thecreep]

Killer responses. I agree, that many of the previous painters such as Rembrandt, Titian and so on are what most consider "Fine Art". This professor was not talking about those artists however, he was referring to work that can be seen in the "Vitamin P" book, which is pretty much work that you would find in "ArtForum". He quickly dismissed any work I had to show, work from Joe Coleman, Mark Ryden, Robert Williams and so on, simply stating that it was all "iilustration" and from what I have learning his idea of illustration is any work that was created to sell a product, fit on a label, magazine/book cover and stimulate no emotion from the viewer. Very close-minded of him.

While we can all agree that the classical artists are "Fine Art" I do think that the phrase can include more artists than are often put in there. Is Jean-Michel Basquiat, or Robert Rauschenberg fine art? I'm sure many people didn't think so at the time they started out. But time and our perceptions have changed this. Is the amount of fans, price of work sold or list of notable collectors make the work Fine Art?

I like what Julius Marcia said in the intro to Chris Mars' Tolerance book. "It is the present nature of our society that seeks to define immediately that which perhaps only time can truly define". I love this, now the question answered was what kind of artist Chris Mars is, Outsider, Visionary, etc. But I think this applies to fine art phrase as well. The work is clearly art, it creates emotion and forces the viewer to think and possibly ask questions. Well, this for me at least is Travis Louie, Ahren Hertel, Matt Dangler and so on. So for me these artists are fine art as well. The skill is there, illustrative story or not. Time might show years later that many of the artists in the Pop Surrealism area are fine artists, I just happen to believe this now. Nothing wrong with being quicker than others.

[travislouie]

I still think your professor is just a little presumptious, . . .and to be honest, I resent his opinion, . . . being in an establishment designed to teach others about art and having such a closed mind is counterproductive, . . .if he doesn't like it, . . . that's one thing, . . .but to simply shrug it off as mere "illustration", . . . and pass his "expert" opinion on to his students is kind of short-sighted. Time does decide these things, . . .but there no sense in ignoring what's going on around you.

[thecreep]

Sept 23, 2008 21:17:58 GMT -8 travislouie said:

I still think your professor is just a little presumptious, . . .and to be honest, I resent his opinion, . . . being in an establishment designed to teach others about art and having such a closed mind is counterproductive, . . .if he doesn't like it, . . . that's one thing, . . .but to simply shrug it off as mere "illustration", . . . and pass his "expert" opinion on to his students is kind of short-sighted. Time does decide these things, . . .but there no sense in ignoring what's going on around you.

Well said, I agree fully with you. It turns out a good majority of the art dept is very close-minded and makes judgment calls with little to no information about the subject.

After a critique in drawing today, I learned nothing of what I need to fix in my work, what I can do better and what I need to stop doing. Instead I witnessed the drawing prof rip apart any work that was not similar to his, and praise those that were in line with his thinking. He snapped at me a few times a well. He asked for names of artists that use non-traditional materials, so I said "Vincent Castiglia" and he snapped "I don't know any of these artists your saying!" full red face going on and everything.

Its one thing to not know, and just state, I don't know who they are do you have work or a website you can show me? No, every other student uses examples of artists that he likes. I heard the same names over and over, a room full of back-slappers. I don't mind the prof not being in line with me, I just cant stand people who get upset, push their ideals forcefully on the students as if this is some cookie cutter institution, its ridiculous.

[travislouie]

what kind of drawing class is it?
if you don't mind me asking

[thecreep]

Sept 24, 2008 2:36:03 GMT -8 travislouie said:

what kind of drawing class is it?
if you don't mind me asking

Just an intermediate drawing class. Im an Art History major, but am taking some art studio courses to tighten my skills and work more with traditional materials rather than with the pc all the time.

[travislouie]

Intermediate Drawing, . . .is that a class that follows a Foundation year drawing class?
The course requirements start to get tricky at that point in most art schools.

[doktor]

In my limited experience art tutors were some of the most closed minded people I have ever met in relation to what is and is not acceptable.( I too have seen tutors praise studens who basically do nothing but ape the tutor's own work whilst dismissing all other avenues..)
In fact it was the view or tutors which made me drop out of art school early on and turn my attention to learning technical stuff (as an industrial modelmaker and prototyper).
Only years later have I wandered back into the art world and found it a much more accepting place than I had previously thought.

I feel it far too simple and lazy to name any work of a figurative nature illustration and thus some how of less worth.
A great deal of this supposed less worthy work can be enjoyed by anyone on many levels without need of a story, context or explaination.
High art which is only understandable when accompanied by a text or explaination is I find alienating and elitist. And often not a lot of fun.
I like my art/illustration/whatever to be enjoyable and accessable whoever its made by.

[dear earthling]

Very well said, doktor.

I too had many frustrating interactions with professors and instructors while in art school. They seemed to always want the students work to reflect what their opinion of art was. And most of them were older than the hills and always spouted the same rhetoric over and over.
One professor in particular wouldn't consider a work important or valid unless it took on some sort of political statement. He treated his students like children (which most of them were) and his sense of superiority was infuriating to me.

I would tell him that there's enough depression, hate inducing media, and depressing things to be upset about in this world as it is. Why can't artwork just make one smile? Must there always be the Sturm und Drang?

He didn't like me very much and like most artists that I know and follow, I dropped out of that institution.

[thecreep]

Well, I don't mind the profs bringing up works from the past IE: Classical, baroque, sublime era work and so on, I just don't like when the view of the prof extends no further than the "scene" the prof is in, or trying to be in for that matter.

So the profs that I have to deal with at this school are showing me that if you don't enjoy, and strive to be in the genre they are in, and have the same ideals and goals that they have then they won't give you a fair shake. This is ridiculous.

The positive side of this all, is it is showing me what kind of Professor I want to be. I think there are positive things to be seen in any style of art, and I would love for my students to know they can bring me anything and I will be helpful with it and try to help them achieve any style or technique they want to try.