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Post by svenman on Mar 25, 2011 12:53:35 GMT -8
yeah maybe, and i hear you chet. but i think that if i was in a contract with someone who has abused women i'd do what i could to get out of it. i'd deliver a picture of a turd and say fuck you. here's your contractually obliged cover art asswipe.
working for someone who acts in such a way either says that you endorse what they did or the money was too good to turn down and your principals come second.
i sincerely hope though that ron did not know about what an ass hole this guy is.
note. edited for the ass hole word trap.
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Post by jefframirez on Mar 25, 2011 12:56:36 GMT -8
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Post by svenman on Mar 25, 2011 13:03:02 GMT -8
ugh.
thanks jeff.
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Post by sleepboy on Mar 25, 2011 13:32:03 GMT -8
Well, it seem he knew about it then. I think Chris Brown is just a touchy subject that is in the public eye at the moment. I'm not up on celeb timelines but at the time this meeting went down, wasn't Chris Brown apologetic and did his community service, before the current blowup?
I mean do artists get crap for working for Kobe Bryant (never convicted I know). I wonder if Ryden got crap doing Michael Jackson's album cover? And, why just focus on artists? What about all the actors and people who work with Charlie Sheen. It could go on and on. At the end of the day, everyone has a job (including me), where you interact with people you don't particularly like or approve of on occasion.
Am I missing something here? I know people will probably not agree.
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Post by svenman on Mar 25, 2011 13:49:26 GMT -8
i'm not sure who kobe bryant is, and i'm not sure if jackson was accused of being a kiddie-fiddler back when ryden did the cover art? wasn't that cover done ears ago? during his weird, but pre-fiddling days?
it does go on and on indeed. yes we do all have jobs, but it is our own choice - and certainly in this case - Ron's choice whether to accept a job and therefore support a person in the public arena from someone who has very publicly beat the crap out of a woman he was in a relationship with.
i don't know what the latest story is on chris fucking brown, and i don't think i need to to find out further, but this now says to me that Ron English endorses this person and his actions by choosing to work for/with him.
Has Ron English put his whole career's credibility on the line by doing this?
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Post by sleepboy on Mar 25, 2011 13:57:23 GMT -8
I think I keep repeating myself so I'm going to delete my comment until I get a chance to talk to Ron about this.
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Post by lowpro on Mar 25, 2011 15:17:56 GMT -8
I think I keep repeating myself so I'm going to delete my comment until I get a chance to talk to Ron about this. ah..I just was about to quote and respond to you. It was nice to see you actually get involved in one of the rare discussions that have sprung up around here rather than simply posting pics  But seeing as this is a rare occasion, I'll still bite and respond to the gist of your now deleted comments. Do we have to be careful about calling a spade a spade, especially on a discussion board, if that's how we personally see it? I'd hope not. Sure, moral fiber won't put food on the table in a tangible sense. But I have long considered dropping the considerable amount of money on the right English in due time and will no longer be doing so. As stated previously, I'm sure the payday was hard to deny, probably more than a handful of paintings from a solo. However, with the client list his repping gallery Opera, infamous in their own right, has undoubtedly been unloading his work to in recent years, I find it hard to believe he needs the money and this was financially motivated. And that's where my baffled state begins and ends. What was the rationale? Would be very interested to hear if you speak with him. At the very least, I'm confused by all this and do feel that, even if this weeks reaffirmation of Brown's problems never manifested themselves, it would have still reflected poorly on his judgment..IMO, of course...and opinions are the fuel that makes discussion boards go And to be honest, I think the comparison to others choosing to work with him in his own industry is irrelevant. I could care less what other music folk do or don't opt to overlook the fact that he clearly has serious anger issues that manifested themselves in a very ugly violence against woman case. This, on the other hand, relates to an artist in the community we support..and more so, that I used to respect. So it's vastly different and entirely more relevant. That said, if I were a producer, promoter, radio exec, etc in the music industry, I personally would have distanced myself as far away as possible from Brown, as almost all did, and not forgotten in recent time, as some have in order to attempt to cash back in on peoples short term memories. Clearly, he's still a liability with his too predictable and too aggressive antics this week. |
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Post by epicfai on Mar 25, 2011 15:31:10 GMT -8
Chris Who?   |
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Post by sleepboy on Mar 25, 2011 15:48:42 GMT -8
I think I keep repeating myself so I'm going to delete my comment until I get a chance to talk to Ron about this. ah..I just was about to quote and respond to you. It was nice to see you actually get involved in one of the rare discussions that have sprung up around here rather than simply posting pics But seeing as this is a rare occasion, I'll still bite and respond to the gist of your now deleted comments. Do we have to be careful about calling a spade a spade, especially on a discussion board, if that's how we personally see it? I'd hope not. Sure, moral fiber won't put food on the table in a tangible sense. But I have long considered dropping the considerable amount of money on the right English in due time and will no longer be doing so. As stated previously, I'm sure the payday was hard to deny, probably more than a handful of paintings from a solo. However, with the client list his repping gallery Opera, infamous in their own right, has undoubtedly been unloading his work to in recent years, I find it hard to believe he needs the money and this was financially motivated. And that's where my baffled state begins and ends. What was the rationale? Would be very interested to hear if you speak with him. At the very least, I'm confused by all this and do feel that, even if this weeks reaffirmation of Brown's problems never manifested themselves, it would have still reflected poorly on his judgment..IMO, of course...and opinions are the fuel that makes discussion boards go And to be honest, I think the comparison to others choosing to work with him in his own industry is irrelevant. I could care less what other music folk do or don't opt to overlook the fact that he clearly has serious anger issues that manifested themselves in a very ugly violence against woman case. This, on the other hand, relates to an artist in the community we support..and more so, that I used to respect. So it's vastly different and entirely more relevant. That said, if I were a producer, promoter, radio exec, etc in the music industry, I personally would have distanced myself as far away as possible from Brown, as almost all did, and not forgotten in recent time, as some have in order to attempt to cash back in on peoples short term memories. Clearly, he's still a liability with his too predictable and too aggressive antics this week. Ha, yes. Unfortunately or fortunately for me, I feel that in my position, it is better to remain neutral on most things and take my discussions on certain things to a more private level. I don't want to see the forum suffer because of something I do or say. Usually, I'm more interested in fostering discussion than expressing my personal opinions. And yes, it would certainly be interested in talking to Ron about it in person or perhaps as an interview question. But, yes, I can definitely see why people are upset about things. Let take a differint approach - as I stated before, I am curious if this phenomena is exclusive to Ron English x Chris Brown. I'm no art historian or expert on pop art but some examples to also come to mind where artist worked for some celebrities who have "dirt" on them include D*Face for Christina Aguilera, George Condo for Kanye West, or Kehinde Wiley for Michael Jackson right before he died? |
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Post by svenman on Mar 25, 2011 16:16:50 GMT -8
What do you mean by having dirt on them hh?
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Post by lowpro on Mar 25, 2011 16:26:23 GMT -8
ah..I just was about to quote and respond to you. It was nice to see you actually get involved in one of the rare discussions that have sprung up around here rather than simply posting pics But seeing as this is a rare occasion, I'll still bite and respond to the gist of your now deleted comments. Do we have to be careful about calling a spade a spade, especially on a discussion board, if that's how we personally see it? I'd hope not. Sure, moral fiber won't put food on the table in a tangible sense. But I have long considered dropping the considerable amount of money on the right English in due time and will no longer be doing so. As stated previously, I'm sure the payday was hard to deny, probably more than a handful of paintings from a solo. However, with the client list his repping gallery Opera, infamous in their own right, has undoubtedly been unloading his work to in recent years, I find it hard to believe he needs the money and this was financially motivated. And that's where my baffled state begins and ends. What was the rationale? Would be very interested to hear if you speak with him. At the very least, I'm confused by all this and do feel that, even if this weeks reaffirmation of Brown's problems never manifested themselves, it would have still reflected poorly on his judgment..IMO, of course...and opinions are the fuel that makes discussion boards go And to be honest, I think the comparison to others choosing to work with him in his own industry is irrelevant. I could care less what other music folk do or don't opt to overlook the fact that he clearly has serious anger issues that manifested themselves in a very ugly violence against woman case. This, on the other hand, relates to an artist in the community we support..and more so, that I used to respect. So it's vastly different and entirely more relevant. That said, if I were a producer, promoter, radio exec, etc in the music industry, I personally would have distanced myself as far away as possible from Brown, as almost all did, and not forgotten in recent time, as some have in order to attempt to cash back in on peoples short term memories. Clearly, he's still a liability with his too predictable and too aggressive antics this week. Ha, yes. Unfortunately or fortunately for me, I feel that in my position, it is better to remain neutral on most things and take my discussions on certain things to a more private level. I don't want to see the forum suffer because of something I do or say. Usually, I'm more interested in fostering discussion than expressing my personal opinions. And yes, it would certainly be interested in talking to Ron about it in person or perhaps as an interview question. But, yes, I can definitely see why people are upset about things. Let take a differint approach - as I stated before, I am curious if this phenomena is exclusive to Ron English x Chris Brown. I'm no art historian or expert on pop art but some examples to also come to mind where artist worked for some celebrities who have "dirt" on them include D*Face for Christina Aguilera, George Condo for Kanye West, or Kehinde Wiley for Michael Jackson right before he died? I suppose I can understand why you might use that argument to defend Ron's decision here. But I don't think it holds much water. Aside from crimes against children, hitting a woman is the lowest of the low for me and comfortably places them in a category of people I'd never want to associate with regardless of the situation. Don't get me wrong. I fully realize everyone makes mistakes and deserves a chance at redemption. I'm far from perfect. And perhaps I'm biased because I think Rhianna is a goddess of sorts..and actually composes some great tracks (even if her artistic video director has been accused of biting). But I just couldn't personally look past his incident with her. But you're right, the other celebrities you've cited have had varying degrees of public relation and criminal issues. I just don't think Aguilera being a lush and getting charged with public intoxication or Kanye being an not a very nice person egomaniac (if not a musical genius) and ruining his image for a while on stage at the VMAs come anywhere close to comparing to assault to produce great bodily injury or making terroristic threats. And even despite long running allegations of child molestation, which have definitely impacted my personal views on Michael Jackson to an extent, and a serious drug addiction, I don't think anyone can deny how important he has been on the musical and cultural landscape of recent history. As such, comparing The King of Pop to chris brown is apples and oranges and don't even deserve to be used in the same frame of reference. Ok, I'll shut up now I know everyone is tired of reading this drivel. Ultimately, I was just seriously taken aback due to my love for English and his art and my hatred for Brown and his art..er music..er sounds. I'm more than happy to keep an open mind and/or eat my words in due time. |
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Post by sleepboy on Mar 25, 2011 16:36:29 GMT -8
What do you mean by having dirt on them hh? I think Walt basically summarized it. |
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Post by oldfartatplay on Mar 25, 2011 17:51:12 GMT -8
I read the article. This statement by English bothered me. Have you heard the Robert Williams story? Some guy had both his arms and chest done up with his art and finally met him. He rolled up the sleeve, than the other sleeve, then showed him his chest. Robert is a grumpy old man. He looked and then said… “You’re a fucking idiot!” Ron English calling Williams a grumpy old man Any how, I don't care about chris brown or how English makes a living. |
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Post by rsingletary on Mar 26, 2011 7:18:26 GMT -8
Doing the art project for Chris Brown makes Ron English look bad ??
Could this be guilt-by-association ?
Chris Brown has anger management issues to deal with now
...................should Ron English attend the classes with Chris Brown ?
I don't think so !!!
Doing the art project for Chris Brown means Ron English endorses
violence against women ? ________I don't think so !!!
Artists should be free to create and present the: 'good, bad, and the ugly'
as a mirror to society (without being accused via guilt-by-association).
RON ENGLISH didn't beat the hell out of anyone.....so, let's put blame
to Chris Brown__________________________and to Chris Brown only !!!
I sincerely hope Chris Brown gets help with his problem.
Let's get off the back of Ron English and stop trying to blame him with
Chris Brown's problems !!
_______________________________________________________
Signed: Robert Singletary__Saturday March 26, 2011__11:18 A.M.
(eastern standard time) USA
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Post by jimandtara on Mar 26, 2011 19:21:34 GMT -8
Let's get off the back of Ron English and stop trying to blame him with Chris Brown's problems !! I don't see anyone here doing that! I hear a bunch of men spelling out the obvious without getting mired down in artsy fartsy rationalizations. Besides being an artist, Ron English is first and foremost a man and its sad to see him lend his talent/reputation to help that chickshit sell albums. He should have took the would-be canvas that he wasted on that POS and wiped his ass with it and sent that to him - now that would have been "artistic expression" in this case that I would've respected... My 2 cents... Jim |
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Post by rsingletary on Mar 27, 2011 9:07:39 GMT -8
@ jimandtara
Could we please stop this Ron English bashing ??!!
EXAMPLE:
Let's say your brother raped and killed a young woman.
You visit your brother in prison and take him gifts.
'Guilt by association' says you endorse his criminal actions.
NO
You are simply expressing unconditional brotherly love for a member of your family.
Your love doesn't mean you endorse his criminal actions in any way.
Nobody should bash you for showing 'unconditional love'.
I will not blame Ron English for another person's criminal behavior !!
_____________________________________________________
Signed: Robert Singletary__Sunday March 27, 2011__1:07 P.M.
(eastern standard time) USA
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Post by Weekender on Mar 27, 2011 9:50:58 GMT -8
Un-diplomatic analogy up there :(
Anyway, generally speaking.....is it possible to dissociate one's self to the persona life/ personal decisions of an artist and focus on the product itself?
Well, beyond the stories behind these things, the product itself is not too appealing compared to other pieces ROn English has done. At least worth the discussion if it turned to be a major masterpiece isnt?
Overall classified into the badworks section.
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Post by chetzar on Mar 27, 2011 10:49:36 GMT -8
I still think people should hold back judgment until we hear a direct statement from Ron (and given the situation, I believe he does owe one). Sounds like from the interview that he was only vaguely aware of the beating situation- and really, who knows what what he knows about it? Maybe he heard the CB has recognized the error of his ways and is trying to make amends by donating to women's charities? Maybe he didn't hear about it until after the art was created? Maybe he had a contract he could not get out of? Who knows?
I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt because A: he has a strong reputation in the artist community for being a good, decent and helpful guy and B: he built his career on doing socially conscious art (going to jail and getting his ass kicked repeatedly by the cops in the process) and working with somebody like Chris Brown seems really out of character for him.
I guess it kind of freaks me out to see so many of these reactions because if it was an artist of my position (struggling to make ends meet) in this situation, it could really hurt career wise. I would hope that people would at least ask me about it personally before writing me off.
On the other hand, it's actually great to see so many people standing up against abuse of women. I'm right there with you- Chris Brown seems like a real douche. But as I said, Ron English is not and because of that I will give him the benefit of the doubt and wait to hear his take on it.
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Post by rsingletary on Mar 27, 2011 13:19:25 GMT -8
@ chetzar________for your Reply #117
I had to give you a big EXALT .....for your clear thinking and good judgement.
____________________________________________________
Signed: Robert Singletary__Sunday March 27, 2011__5:19 P.M.
(eastern standard time) USA
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Post by ricosg11 on Mar 27, 2011 13:37:18 GMT -8
Let's get off the back of Ron English and stop trying to blame him with Chris Brown's problems !! I don't see anyone here doing that! I hear a bunch of men spelling out the obvious without getting mired down in artsy fartsy rationalizations. Besides being an artist, Ron English is first and foremost a man and its sad to see him lend his talent/reputation to help that chickshit sell albums. He should have took the would-be canvas that he wasted on that POS and wiped his ass with it and sent that to him - now that would have been "artistic expression" in this case that I would've respected... My 2 cents... Jim Rsingletary, Jim has it right and his statement is the most logical. Ron English would have done his career better by video taping himself shitting on the canvas and posting it on youtube. That is a MAN i would support. A man, an artist, a human being, would not associate themselves with the lowest of the low (a man that beats a woman). There is nothing worse than one human using fear to make another feel powerless and that is what chris brown did. Based on his action last week, he has learned absolutely fucking nothing. He could have killed innocent people walking down the sidewalk by breaking the glass he did high up in a manhattan high rise during his immature temper tantrum. I struggle to see how you find any of this defensible. No Ron isnt a woman beater, Ive heard he is a very nice guy, but this would have been a great opportunity for him to stand up for what's right, and based on his reputation as an activist, i find it extremely disappointing he didnt. |
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Post by virtu on Mar 28, 2011 7:54:36 GMT -8
The more I look at the Chris Brown image it really seems to me that Mr English slipped an insult by Brown's people.
The image is in no way flattering but seems almost evil/aggressive with a massive Egomaniac feel.
Maybe Mr English took the money and then slapped together this really crappy, degrading mirror image of Brown. (it's an ugly piece in general)
The piece just doesn't feel right to me, it's as if Mr English is cleverly calling Brown a Self Absorbed Ass & getting paid for it?
It would be cool if he donated the money to some Women's Shelters.
Just a thought.
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Post by chadley on Mar 28, 2011 13:47:00 GMT -8
The more I look at the Chris Brown image it really seems to me that Mr English slipped an insult by Brown's people. The image is in no way flattering but seems almost evil/aggressive with a massive Egomaniac feel. Maybe Mr English took the money and then slapped together this really crappy, degrading mirror image of Brown. (it's an ugly piece in general) The piece just doesn't feel right to me, it's as if Mr English is cleverly calling Brown a Self Absorbed Ass & getting paid for it? It would be cool if he donated the money to some Women's Shelters. Just a thought. I agree although, "When asked about the Rhianna beat down, Ron English was only vaguely aware of the situation." It's a crappy situation but should we expect every artist to investigate the personal lives of every rich person who asks them to do a project? I guess they should at least google somebody before they take on a public project like this. |
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Post by sleepboy on Mar 31, 2011 13:21:32 GMT -8
Despite some of the recent controversy. Ron is still a pretty good artist. Check out this showstopper from his current exhibition at the International Museum of Arts and Sciences in Texas.  |
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Post by lowpro on Mar 31, 2011 14:16:32 GMT -8
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Post by andrew on Mar 31, 2011 14:18:45 GMT -8
Despite some of the recent controversy. Ron is still a pretty good artist. Check out this showstopper from his current exhibition at the International Museum of Arts and Sciences in Texas. That's incredible. |
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But seeing as this is a rare occasion, I'll still bite and respond to the gist of your now deleted comments. 
