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Reps
Jul 12, 2008 15:44:33 GMT -8
Post by marcusslo on Jul 12, 2008 15:44:33 GMT -8
In the wake of Los Angeles losing Elton Brand...
I would like to hear your thoughts of Reps and their place in the art world...
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Reps
Jul 12, 2008 16:37:02 GMT -8
Post by entropy on Jul 12, 2008 16:37:02 GMT -8
Do most artists have reps? I've been fortunate to have dealt with artists or galleries directly in most cases. Though I am dealing with one rep right now for some recent work I've purchased (for now I will refrain from posting specifics on that relationship and what I have seen firsthand).
I have some nasty things to say about the concept in general. From a collector's perspective, I think it's really just bad news. I am contemplating whether I should proceed with my post, ha ha
In an oversimplified nutshell, the "rep" or agent will typically want to exploit and ride the coattails of success of a given artist. The rep will usually approach the artist. The artist will typically be open to the idea, hoping for wealth and celebrity beyond their wildest dreams. It's supposed to be a symbiotic and mutually beneficial relationship. But I believe it's more sycophantic in nature - from rep to naive artist...
Bottom line, I think reps are the ones responsible for booking their artists (which includes a bit of marketing, assembling press/portfolio kits), negotiating prices, etc. Extract every $100 bill you can from an insular market that feeds on its own self-generated hype.
What I'd like to know is how much do they get paid? Is it a cut of each sale? If so, how much? A percentage of the revenue generated from a licensing deal? If so, how much? etc.
I'm no expert. And I don't want to paint a purely negative picture. I realize some artists believe it will be good for them, especially if they want to be full-time artists, earning their livelihood purely as a gallery artist.
I think my perception might be tainted by daily reading of the LA Times Sports page and having seen what a scumbag like Scott Boras can do to an entire industry.
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Reps
Jul 12, 2008 16:46:19 GMT -8
Post by masao626 on Jul 12, 2008 16:46:19 GMT -8
i could see how artists who're new to showing and dealing with collectors and galleries on a broader scale feel overwhelmed and see a rep as someone who can help them navigate the shark infested waters and keep them on a solid path, while allowing them to focus on what they love while someone else fields the bs.
thoughts?
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Reps
Jul 12, 2008 18:02:44 GMT -8
Post by virtu on Jul 12, 2008 18:02:44 GMT -8
Now day's most reps/agents are the sharks & nothing more than Pimps looking for their % cut, using up artist while looking for the next big thing then dumping the older artist whose sales have slowed down.. Viscous cycle too many artist fall into.
Some artist have real friends or spouses that have become their rep/agent usually because the artist has asked them to be the rep not the other way around and that is much better relationship having them watch your back.
In Day's of Old (non evil) art publishers produced all limited editions and set up the artist shows for originals. The artist & authorized galleries were under contract but treated like family and never cheated. There would be about 20 or less authorized galleries for artist, these galleries carried the artist limited editions all year in house so local collectors would always be able to see new work from their favorite artist across the country and not just in a few galleries here & there once or twice a year. This also made sure more collectors had a chance at new limited editions since each gallery was alloted a certain amount of each edition which went to walk in collectors mostly and not sold out in minutes to flippers online. These galleries that hung and supported the artist all year by showcasing their limited editions were rewarded with shows of original works and exclusive editions offered at shows. It was a symbiotic relationship that worked well up until the 90's when greed took over.
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Reps
Jul 12, 2008 18:10:52 GMT -8
Post by rhinomilk on Jul 12, 2008 18:10:52 GMT -8
I think if an artist relies on gallery and freelance work, an agent can be very useful. I think only a small amount of artists who shows at galleries can actually make a living solely off that... so they need someone to help find other work for them. I also think that being a good artists doesn't always translate into someone who is business savvy and they also don't have time to do what it takes to run their own business (like get the money they're due, find work, process paperwork, set up a website, maybe work with people to publish prints, books, etc. , keep an archive of their work, keep in contact with clients, etc. ). if you are successful and have many commitments lined up... not sure how you'd have time to do anything besides your art.
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Reps
Jul 12, 2008 19:08:35 GMT -8
Post by virtu on Jul 12, 2008 19:08:35 GMT -8
Your absolutely right Rhinomilk about them needing help but instead of some Rep that stalks shows handing out cards and tries to sign artist on the spot the artist should get themselves a killer Assistant.
The Assistant always understands they work for the artist and the better the artist does and the happier the artist is keeps the assistant's job secure. Rep's tend to make artist feel they owe them or are obliged and want more money as the artist makes more. The assistant could help set up shows, do books, keep client list and update website and so on all for one price. (not a percentage of the artist income like the Rep)
Smart artist I know all have Assistants not Rep's.
The Artist Assistant is focused on only one artist while the Rep spreads themselves amongst many artist. Artist with weaker sales will not get as much effort/attention from the Rep as the ones making them more $ in their stable.
And if your under contract with an Evil Rep with a lovely loop hole contract and they get pissed at you they can stop getting you shows and hold up your career until the contract is up.
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Reps
Jul 12, 2008 19:16:17 GMT -8
Post by masao626 on Jul 12, 2008 19:16:17 GMT -8
that's a fantastic point virtu!
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Reps
Jul 13, 2008 6:43:59 GMT -8
Post by LeBasse Projects on Jul 13, 2008 6:43:59 GMT -8
normally i would stay out of this one, but i really must present another point of view.
I represent/manage several of our artists, and deal with several managers of other artists we show. While I have certainly dealt with some greedy and unsavory managers, i feel that most of the managers i have dealt with are truly involved because they are as passionate about the artists as most of the people on these boards.
For a young artist, a manager with good relationships at the galleries can really kickstart a career. One young artist mentioned on these boards, has a manager that can be a pain in the rear for me - but there is no question he hustles for his clients. He has managed to get his artist into quite a few great shows, and has setup several larger shows for them. His payment? A percentage in the form of artwork.
While we at project: represent a team of artists as well, we do not take a percentage either. We work hard to make sure our artists are booked into the right shows for them, and primarily keep them from ending up in shows where we don't think their work will be taken care of properly...and believe me there are quite a few of those types of shows offered.
Our commitment is to taking care of the scheduling, shipping, and general career guidance, so that our team can focus on their art. My guess is that if you asked any of the artists in our family - or even any of the collectors who have spent time with us - you would certainly get a different perspective on the artist/manager relationship.
Its early in the morning after a big show, so you are all catching me while my brain is racing...hope i don't sound too crazy, but i thought someone should speak up for the "good" managers.
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Reps
Jul 13, 2008 6:46:08 GMT -8
Post by LeBasse Projects on Jul 13, 2008 6:46:08 GMT -8
ps. marcus - losing Elton and Corey is what the Clips get for poaching my man Baron!
I hope Baron ends up dying on the vine for letting his evil manager take him from my beloved Golden State Warriors...
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Reps
Jul 13, 2008 7:18:20 GMT -8
Post by virtu on Jul 13, 2008 7:18:20 GMT -8
Galleries like yourself Project and others like Roq La Rue and Johnathan LeVine are very good friends/managers for their artist and do help them find outside shows/events to help boost their artist careers.
My post is about the Free Range Rep/Agent/Manager. (not galleries) If you had a show and found some outside Rep working your gallery floor handing out their card to your artist and to your collectors it should piss you off. Or some outside Rep at your show is trying to lure your artist away with promises of bigger money & fame it might piss one off. Seen this happen many, many times over my years in the industry. (years working L.A. Galleries)
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Reps
Jul 13, 2008 8:50:58 GMT -8
Post by sleepboy on Jul 13, 2008 8:50:58 GMT -8
I think obviously there are good and bad reps. A good one could further your career especially if you are unknown. But why get one if galleries are beating down your door trying to get you to show there. Get an assistant...like virtu said.
I just hear that a lot of galleries don't like them and that they burn a lot of bridges for their artists. So, just be careful if you are an artist. Try to get feedback as to how they are perceived and what people are saying about that rep. Make sure your rep reports all offers and solicitations to you instead of dangling and negotiating ur participation as part of an ego trip or as leverage for his other stable of artists. That's the other problem, there can be a big conflict of interest if he has multiple artists and he abuses an established or hot artists reputation/participation to promote his other artists....kinda like Scott Boras haha. Or if they are a collector, they might pressure a gallery to sell them certain art pieces just because they represent a stable of artists... Not saying all reps are involved in said scenarios, just saying it could, and does happen.
And yes, I have seen a certain rep trolling shows and at that same time hitting on barely legal girls half his age... creepy.
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 10:04:39 GMT -8
Post by marcusslo on Jul 14, 2008 10:04:39 GMT -8
lots of great points guys.
i think reps are fine as long as they have the experience, and the respect. As an artist, people are going to associate you with your rep... and if your rep is rubbing everyone the wrong way people/galleries aren't going to care that it may just be your rep thats a bad guy and not you... I am sure reps use their hotter artists as leverage for the lesser known ones. While that is great for the artist that is less known... it is pretty unfair for the hotter artist. so yeah, if i were an artist i would personally go with an assistant instead of a rep.
and project: I hear what you are saying... but like virtu said... what you are doing is different than the kind of "rep" work that i am seeing as so questionable. your work is more like that of a team or a family and i respect what you are doing... but you are totally off when it comes to your warriors losing BD. BD came over cuz of Brand. Then Brand and his agent stabbed us in the back. so blame it on Elton and David. if Brand never told BD he was staying, I'm sure BD would've tested the market (and mostly likely have gotten more money) rather than just immediately taking the first deal with the Clipps
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 13:03:42 GMT -8
Post by highbrow on Jul 14, 2008 13:03:42 GMT -8
How would one get experience as a rep. At some point you have to start somewhere and how does one become a rep. ( I do not want to be a rep. but I do have a friend I am helping with a couple projects that I put together becuase the artist would rather be woorking and traveling )
All great points and I personally could see how a rep. could ruin an artists career .
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 16:06:17 GMT -8
Post by virtu on Jul 14, 2008 16:06:17 GMT -8
You can start being a Real Rep this way. (many gallery owners started this way) Work for a Art Publishing House. Most Reps I deal with are Publisher Reps. Disney - Seuss - Simpsons and a few others.
An example of the typical Rep would be say the Chase Group Reps.
The Chase Group has 3 Artist with each Artist having about 3 to 4 Reps each with a different territory and each handles all the galleries in their territory. West Coast Territory - East Coast Territory - Southern Territory....
Each Authorized Chase Gallery is given a territory after going thru "The Process" with the Rep and if you make it thru "The Process" no other gallery within that authorized galleries territory may show say artist works. (Exclusive for your area)
The Rep updates their galleries on new limited editions, price sheets, bio's, visuals, catalogs, sales training and whatever else the gallery might need to promote the artist work. If the gallery gives the Rep good numbers $ they will give you a show with originals$ All authorized galleries sign a contract with lots of rules including you must sale so much product each year to keep your territory.
That is what a Traditional Rep is to me.
Either a Publisher Reps an Artist or a Gallery Reps an Artist. Or the artist is independent and works with assistants who work with the galleries.
The other kind of Rep seems more Talent Agent.
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 17:58:00 GMT -8
Post by entropy on Jul 14, 2008 17:58:00 GMT -8
This is an awesome thread with lots of insight from both sides. With this sort of continued insider info and substantive dialogue, I really believe, in time, this forum can be somewhat influential on our favorite art scene... I mean, the KR forum (Fine Arts subsection) should be restructured and retitled the "Angry Woebots & Luke Chueh Show". And the Limited Addiction forum has become a ghost town. There are indeed cool blogs out there, but this is the only art forum for this genre that I consider a must read
Anyway, back to the topic at hand:
Another thing about the "profile" of the few reps I've seen out there: They tend to be collectors themselves, or even "art groupies" - you know, the sycophant that worships at the altar of "the flavor of the month" (i.e. a recursive variant on the starf#cker archetype), OR in many cases are struggling or former (i.e. usually mediocre) artists themselves. "You can learn from MY mistakes, young padawan. I know how to navigate this treacherous terra incognita." They're usually a "jack of all trades". Part time artist, part time actor, part time screenwriter, part time producer, part time _________ (fill in the blank). The sleaziest will possess the gift of gab.
Young artists are especially vulnerable, I think. In Los Angeles, you need a SAG card. You need to have that screenplay in your backpack ready at all times. You need a friend on the inside. You need the prestige and distinction of having an agent. Without one, you're going nowhere, no matter how talented you are. It's all about who you know. So sign here: Yep, on the dotted line. And then just initial there, yes where the X is.
Did I mention I have a secret weapon? In a pinch, I can call Leonardo di Caprio and have him purchase the unsold $5,000 piece you're finishing up for the November show - the buzz that that creates can typically sustain your career for at least 5 years. But I only like to make that call once every so often. But under my guidance, we won't have to resort to that.
Don't worry about the money now. And if you don't have any spare art as an interim payment outside of your next couple shows... Well, you and I, together, can figure out other (intangible) means of repayment. * * *
So, how accurate is my depiction of the Weasel that Dwells in the Land of Retinal Delights? I think I'm about 95% spot on. What's missing is the price negotiation between gallery and rep, ha ha. Would love to listen in on that... But I can imagine it.
Personally, I think if an artist is ambitious and entrepreneurial in nature, he/she can get up to speed relatively quickly with just a minimal amount of exposure to the scene and a bit of research. I agree that hiring an assistant is the way to go.
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 18:46:09 GMT -8
Post by highbrow on Jul 14, 2008 18:46:09 GMT -8
Entropy great reply, but what if the artist just wants to create, what if he sees the business side of things as a must but dirty. meaning he has to deal with that side of things to be free to create. What does the artist who only wants to create due?
What if the rep. becomes the rep. out of accident, maybe he or she is helping a family friend on one project and as it snowballs they grow deeper and deeper into it?
I guess I am indifferent to this topic as I have no urge to be in the art business yet find myself slowly helping out a family friend more and more.
( sorry for typos my fingers arent good ont he phone yet )
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 19:47:48 GMT -8
Post by entropy on Jul 14, 2008 19:47:48 GMT -8
Entropy great reply, but what if the artist just wants to create, what if he sees the business side of things as a must but dirty. meaning he has to deal with that side of things to be free to create. What does the artist who only wants to create due? What if the rep. becomes the rep. out of accident, maybe he or she is helping a family friend on one project and as it snowballs they grow deeper and deeper into it? I guess I am indifferent to this topic as I have no urge to be in the art business yet find myself slowly helping out a family friend more and more. ( sorry for typos my fingers arent good ont he phone yet ) hello, highbrow! In a perfect world, the artist would just focus on the art. We all can agree on that. In the case of your artist friend, yes, it appears he/she needs some guidance or simply desires that buffer between him/her and the business side of it. I think he/she is fortunate that you are there willing to help and share your insight. Since you're not pursuing this as a dilettante endeavor but out of a genuine interest to help your friend get a career jump started, I think that is cool. That is a noble thing, actually. I wish you the best of luck. What you'll probably learn however, is that to be effective and build a lucrative enterprise for your artist friend, you'll probably have to do battle for your client when interfacing with galleries and/or collectors... Judging from the majority of responses in this thread, very few (if any) are adept at that game without burning bridges, ruffling feathers, etc... But I sincerely wish you best in the event you get pulled deeper into it. BTW, many of my posts are partially constructed to incite a chuckle here or there. I mean, they are genuine and sincere (and hopefully perceived as thoughtful), but don't take them too seriously ; ) Cheers, entropy
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 19:56:48 GMT -8
Post by highbrow on Jul 14, 2008 19:56:48 GMT -8
thanks for the response entropy, I am lucky as my family friend has a unique product and is highly praised for what he does, the issue he is having as he is working on a large project for another company I was able to team him up with someone that I thin will give him great exposure and push his work into the eyes of people like us ( on this forum ).
Next step for me to build him a website so when this project is released he can hopefully make himself more available to people in the public.
( Love the topic and never would have thought working full time in the entertainment field would be easier than helping a family friend now and then )
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Reps
Jul 14, 2008 22:03:59 GMT -8
Post by virtu on Jul 14, 2008 22:03:59 GMT -8
What you'll probably learn however, is that to be effective and build a lucrative enterprise for your artist friend, you'll probably have to do battle for your client when interfacing with galleries and/or collectors... Judging from the majority of responses in this thread, very few (if any) are adept at that game without burning bridges, ruffling feathers, etc... I know when I look back I've burned many a bridge and ruffled more than a few feathers myself. This business can be very frustrating but it's worth it if you love art.
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Reps
Jul 15, 2008 21:52:39 GMT -8
Post by sleepboy on Jul 15, 2008 21:52:39 GMT -8
This is an awesome thread with lots of insight from both sides. With this sort of continued insider info and substantive dialogue, I really believe, in time, this forum can be somewhat influential on our favorite art scene... I mean, the KR forum (Fine Arts subsection) should be restructured and retitled the "Angry Woebots & Luke Chueh Show". And the Limited Addiction forum has become a ghost town. There are indeed cool blogs out there, but this is the only art forum for this genre that I consider a must read Anyway, back to the topic at hand: Another thing about the "profile" of the few reps I've seen out there: They tend to be collectors themselves, or even "art groupies" - you know, the sycophant that worships at the altar of "the flavor of the month" (i.e. a recursive variant on the starf#cker archetype), OR in many cases are struggling or former (i.e. usually mediocre) artists themselves. "You can learn from MY mistakes, young padawan. I know how to navigate this treacherous terra incognita." They're usually a "jack of all trades". Part time artist, part time actor, part time screenwriter, part time producer, part time _________ (fill in the blank). The sleaziest will possess the gift of gab. Young artists are especially vulnerable, I think. In Los Angeles, you need a SAG card. You need to have that screenplay in your backpack ready at all times. You need a friend on the inside. You need the prestige and distinction of having an agent. Without one, you're going nowhere, no matter how talented you are. It's all about who you know. So sign here: Yep, on the dotted line. And then just initial there, yes where the X is.
Did I mention I have a secret weapon? In a pinch, I can call Leonardo di Caprio and have him purchase the unsold $5,000 piece you're finishing up for the November show - the buzz that that creates can typically sustain your career for at least 5 years. But I only like to make that call once every so often. But under my guidance, we won't have to resort to that.
Don't worry about the money now. And if you don't have any spare art as an interim payment outside of your next couple shows... Well, you and I, together, can figure out other (intangible) means of repayment. * * * So, how accurate is my depiction of the Weasel that Dwells in the Land of Retinal Delights? I think I'm about 95% spot on. What's missing is the price negotiation between gallery and rep, ha ha. Would love to listen in on that... But I can imagine it. Personally, I think if an artist is ambitious and entrepreneurial in nature, he/she can get up to speed relatively quickly with just a minimal amount of exposure to the scene and a bit of research. I agree that hiring an assistant is the way to go. Haha. Leave it to you to make such a colorful post... Hopefully these aren't the scenarios that go down for every rep-artist interaction. Speaking of which, there aren't that many that i'm aware of. I can't that many other successful artists that have reps these days... Oh, also usually the price of negotiation comes out of the artists pocket...the galleries don't pay the rep. "Weasel that Dwells in the Land of Retinal Delights." LOL.
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