Selfish Collectors?

[boto]

so pieces of this thread:

artchival.proboards54.com/index.cgi?board=artists&action=display&thread=715

to sum up the points in the thread I am getting at so that you all do not have to open it and look it over it's basically about an up and coming artists work. but some of the comments that are made in the thread are from collectors who don't want him to be discovered yet so that they can get his work without having a lot of other people compete for it and probably get it while it's still cheap.

Anyways, this brings up a question for me. I understand the reasoning as to why people like their newly discovered artists to be kept secret cause it makes their work more readily available. but at the same time does this make the collectors that do this selfish? I feel like there's a lot of collectors that do this, they go nuts buying an artists work and just wait for people to catch on, then finally when more of the scene catches on they try to brag about how much of that artists work they already have. Whereas before they start bragging about what they already have they try their best to pretend they don't know anything about that artist. Then, once everyone in the scene catches on they try to promote the artist to make the value of their collection go up.

I'm not saying all collectors do this, but at the same time I have noticed this on more than one occasion.

Some collectors give me hope that we all aren't selfish and that we are really here because we love what artists can create:

Sept 1, 2008 10:17:52 GMT -8 commandax said:

I guess I could've kept him our little secret, but that wouldn't really be fair to the artist, would it?

Anyways, for me I don't have the time to look all over the internet for new artists or art openings, I work a lot and just don't have the time. That may be why I think I'm noticing this on art forums. Because by the time the up and coming artist starts to pick up, there's always someone who has a ton of their work who starts acting like they have known about the artist forever and that they are the best thing since sliced bread (yet they've never mentioned them before...).

But there's some people here who are gallery owners/operators/artists. I do understand why an artist might not start a thread about themselves because you're posting your work next to people like Ryden and other greats and it's intimidating. I also see why gallery owners may or may not post new artists. Sometimes they might not want to hype someone before a show and just let the public decide how they like it.

and I also understand why a private collector might keep an artist a secret. it makes them more available.

I haven't mentioned other people who might fall under other categories like bloggers or webzine writers. most bloggers (key word MOST, not ALL) just happen to be private collectors who could go either way on this pendulum, some like to build up their personal collections before promoting an artist then saying "why haven't you heard about this artist? I'm so cool that I have a nice collection of their work already." Webzine writers I feel are more in it for art appreciation and show things as they discover it.

Anyways, I'm rambling now, but I sincerely do not mean this as an attack at anyone, this is just more of something I have noticed within the scene at times.

So the question is, are we selfish?

p.s. Feel free to smite me but I think it could be either a great discussion or a lot of name calling. let's hope it's not the latter.

[sleepboy]

hm....

i don't think as collectors we are obligated to post about every single artist we know about. this would be time consuming and downright impossible. not to mention collectors who aren't even on forums.

i have often had the same thoughts about keeping quiet about an artist's work so that i can acquire more of their stuff before they become too expensive but most of the time i lean towards trying to promote them. i'm surprised how many times i'm told by a collector that they discovered an artist they love and own work from because of something i posted. but there are hundreds more i haven't said anything about or even remember until someone else says something to remind me.

i don't think there was anything boastful in the thread you mentioned. if a collector was truly selfish they would not even chime in to "brag" about what they have since by "bragging" they are in fact promoting an artist and potentially increasing "competition." also, most art blogs i have read are usually quite pleasant, i haven't noticed much of the "elitist" attitudes that you have been referring to but perhaps i don't frequent the same ones you do.

in general, if i feel an artists stuff that gets too expensive for what i think they are worth, i just move on. there's 10 things i want to buy for each thing i pass up so i don't feel like it's a big deal to let people know aobut an artist i like.

[yolao]

Nice thread ,
im not replying cos i was the person saying "to keep secret" an artist but im actually doing this because of the nice subject.

ill try to mate it more simple:

1) if you have few pieces of un unknown artist and you dont share with friends or other collector you might look selfish for keeping it for you as a special treat

2) if you have few pieces of an unknown artist and you push your friends collectors and others to check his stuff and wishing for appreciation than it could look like you trying to have your discover more famous , hence increase the value of the pieces you own!!

just two simple idea i had in mind!! ;D

anyway fun/sad story!!

1 year ago, talking art with good mate RAREUSGOLD i told him my "recent discovery" was KMNDZ and i suggested him to give it a look!!

then at a g1988 show in SF i call to block the piece that Johnny had at the time for 1200 bucks (NOTHING compered the beuty of it)

i got told that the piece was already sold..........

of course after few days my good friend Richard informed me he bought the piece following my suggestion!!!

ive tried for 2 month to find a deal to have it , but its still proudly hanging in Miami, and im now happy about it

ciao ciao

[commandax]

1 year ago, talking art with good mate RAREUSGOLD i told him my "recent discovery" was KMNDZ and i suggested him to give it a look!!

then at a g1988 show in SF i call to block the piece that Johnny had at the time for 1200 bucks (NOTHING compered the beuty of it)

i got told that the piece was already sold..........

Don't feel bad Oli, you still have what I would consider the second-best KMNDZ piece out there ("Growth" is my absolute favorite)... and I'm sure you'll have more before long!

[marcusslo]

"2nd best" lol... ouch

[marcusslo]

oh and answer to the question is YES we generally are

here's an example why we may not be at first but can change later...

i was talking to this guy who collects obey prints. he told his friend about it who then went on to tell his friend about it. then obey released these prints at their gallery. the guy waited in line for the prints but it just so happened that they sold the last ones to the two people in front of him. the two people in front of him were a kid and his dad. the kid happened to be the friend that the guys friend had introduced to obey. to make matters worse... while in line the kid had said he was just getting one set... he and his father ended up each getting a set... to sell

so you stop sharing

[rhinomilk]

selfish collector... isn't that redundant?

[voleboy]

In think boto may have a bit of a point, but I am sure people don't keep artists a secret simply so when they blow up they can gloat about getting in early.....

The other responses illustrate the point completely, if you shout from the rooftops the name of someone you really like, you are actually decreasing your chance of owning their work, that's possibly selfish, but there we have it. And in these days of the internet, all it takes is a few posts on a couple of forums and interest can snowball.

Don't forget there are people out there who have literally no interest in an artist and buy just to flip....keeping the name from these people is also commendable IMO...remember, as well as us posters who love art, there are a large number of people sniffing about looking for 'investment' advice.

Work by an artist admired on these forums has been bought by someone who I am aware of that posts on other art forums. He is currently offering work he bought from the gallery 6 months ago at between 5 and 10 times what he bought it for. This isn't good for anybody is it?

[virtu]

I stopped sharing/posting new release info on other blogs or altogether after seeing my exact post pop up minutes later on Kidrobot or other blogs.
So instead of sharing info with a few you let thousands know including professional flippers.
It just made it harder for my friends & collectors to obtain so we went to the "HUSH" policy and now only email upcoming release info.
Even stopped posting new editions until after they sell out to keep down flipper feeding frenzies.

If you find an artist that you love and the artist is doing fine without promotion keep it to yourself. (or share with me)
Most artist talked about here are growing and early work does not mean more valuable. (allot of early work is god awful)

[commandax]

selfish collector... isn't that redundant?

I don't think so. There are some collectors and gallery owners out there who are real fans of artists, and want to see them succeed. They do what they can to support promising up-and-coming artists so they can continue to create art instead of having to take a full-time "straight" job. More than once, I've heard that Amy Sol nearly gave up painting – that she almost became a full-time waitress – but when she finally sold a painting at an LA group show, she decided to keep on trying.

Unless you're wealthy enough that you can single-handedly support an artist by buying their work, it's not right to expect them to starve while you hoard all the work you can get from them at low, low prices. That's not to say there's anything wrong with picking up a piece or two before you let other folks in on it! ;D

[highbrow]

In regards to this post, it is a good one. I have to say I do not think it is this boards job to inform people about every artist who is unknown. The board is about sharing information and having a real place to discuss art. Is it selfish if someone does not promote or talk about an artist becuase that person is trying to get a work by them, or several. I personally think not, the same way I do not think it is selfish when I am pushed off a list I know I should have gotten a piece from becuase a gallery I do not normally do bussiness with has sold it to a gallery regular. it i just the cost of doing business.

Before I was invited to this board ( thanks hung ) I knew very little about the art talked about on it. I was stuck over at LA board with zero posts and did not even know KR had a fine art section. I found KR and HUNG saw a Luke piece I have and sent an invite, if we all were selfish this board would not be here. Before coming here my only purchase from a non gallery was through OLI who sold me my first Fontana piece and did so at what he paid for it, and also could not have been more of a pleasure to deal with as my paypal account was having problems and he not only shipped it packaged like a bomb could not harm it, he do so very fast.

When Hung saw my Sorren Drawing he inquired about it and I was able to help him get one also. So people are selfish but I do not think it is really out of not wanting other people to have something I think it is selfish out of there just not being enough time to talk about every artist.

[masao626]

this is an interesting thread - especially for a brand new member to start posting with.

you're going to get both sides of the fence on this issue:
people who feel that there is clearly competition amongst folks on this board (and other boards) because we're all going for very limited supply and that that's okay, that's the game.
and those who feel that for a community to truly be such, we should all be sharing our "connections" or "rumors" or whatever one might call it.

i think that there's a little (or lot maybe) of both in play in collecting and it personally doesn't bother me either way. more power to those who are savvier, better placed on wait lists, who have cushier bank accounts or with simply more passion and know-how than i or others have to get what they want!

what does tend to get to me is hearing those people subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) making sure other's know that about them. that posturing you can sometimes pick up where it seems that folks are trying to make sure others know that they have connections and that they're "important".
we're not offering medical aide to 3rd world countries - we're collecting beautiful things and we're each uniquely fortunate to be in a position to do so. no one is better than anybody else in this.

i've second guessed many a post of mine wondering if they come across like i'm a pompous *ss and i'm sure despite that gut check i've sounded like an idiot on multiple occasions - for that i apologize.

i don't think it's an overwhelming issue or anything, but since we have a somewhat "controversial" thread here, i thought i'd throw in my two cents.

[oldfartatplay]

I hope my comments on this doesn't ruffle anyones feathers. The original post by boto referred to a thread regarding Chris Berens and how forum members where keeping this "up and coming" artist a secret. Chris Berens is not a up and coming secret, he has been painting for years (nice work). From the tone of your post I get the feeling that you what to collect art that is "the next big thing" and not something that you might particularly like. I'm sorry but I got to say that this is a foolish way to collect art. If your into the speculation thing then I'm wasting my time commenting here. Take your time, visit gallery web sites, art blogs, artist blogs, see what you like and what moves you, get on some preview lists, maybe you will discover the next up and comer on your own. Good luck, right now I gotta go selfishly contact someone so I get my mitts on one of those Andy Kehoes over at The BLAB SHOW.

[masao626]

Sept 2, 2008 15:49:35 GMT -8 oldfartatplay said:

Good luck, right now I gotta go selfishly contact someone so I get my mitts on one of those Andy Kehoes over at The BLAB SHOW.

you're such a terrible person! ;D

(do i need to say that was a joke?)

[oldfartatplay]

No! but I did get what I wanted "A Noble Leader Exiled, Hornless and Shamed"

[evilchoy]

lucky you I had my eye on that one and was planning on purchasing it some time this week (aka after simkin depletes my art account)

[masao626]

Sept 2, 2008 15:59:55 GMT -8 oldfartatplay said:

No! but I did get what I wanted "A Noble Leader Exiled, Hornless and Shamed"

hey congrats!!!

[boto]

First off I would like to say thanks to everyone who took this post seriously and not as an attack on anyone. I never intended it seem that way. I also must apologize for referencing another post, I realize I should have just written out a situation instead of referencing another post and writing a similar situation.

Sept 2, 2008 1:19:25 GMT -8 sleepboy said:

i don't think there was anything boastful in the thread you mentioned.

Sept 2, 2008 15:49:35 GMT -8 oldfartatplay said:

The original post by boto referred to a thread regarding Chris Berens and how forum members where keeping this "up and coming" artist a secret. Chris Berens is not a up and coming secret, he has been painting for years (nice work).

in response to these comments and looking over what I originally wrote I realize that I seemed to have left out some important things that I meant to type, mostly that parts of that thread had reminded me of these questions that I had at one point in time. I didn’t mean that that particular post had all of the elements I later mentioned. I should have just written a scenario instead of mentioning that particular post. I don’t think anyone was boasting in that thread and I was also not necessarily referring to Chris Berens as a secret up and coming artist. The artist had nothing to do with the questions that I was trying to ask.

Honestly the more I look at the responses the more I realize that everyone has said everything I could think of saying and then some. I’m really glad to read all of your responses, and I wish I could have come up with a better response than this myself. Anyways, thanks again everyone for the good discussion.

[thecreep]

I don't have that much experience with collectors being selfish, some, but more with galleries and other art "sites"

The main goal of the site/blog I run is to expose new, up and coming artists. I do have the time to scour the net and meet new unseen artists, I also get contacted quite a lot by unknown talent. There has been a few times that I have introduced new artists to galleries, and turns out a few of them have done very well. There are also a few art sites that have featured new artists, just days after I did. I didn't notice this until an artist I know pointed it out. Sure I don't get as many hits as these other sites do, but its sucks when my site doesn't do as well as it should when I am obviously doing a good job.

There was a point when a few sites had links to mine, but have since removed them. It kind of upsets me, especially when the sites have no problem posting things I write about, yet they cant even reciprocate and give me a link back. To one of these galleries, I asked to curate a show, and the quick answer was no. But, I was able to previously introduce them to 10 artists that are making the gallery a good amount of money now. So, I have a a good eye for art, but not good enough to curate a show. I was also told by the gallery that they told the artists they found their work through me, yet when I e-mail the artists later for a feature, they have no clue what my site is.

The sadder one, is when I get contacted by artists questioning if they should sell work for the price offered. For example, an up and comer I believe will be very popular soon was told that his/her work was really worth about $200 per 14" x 18" piece, and that since the person wanted to buy like 5 of them, the price should be lowered even further. The person wanting to rob this artist, is a well known figure on the web as far as art "stuff" goes.

So do I think some people who collect/show/sell art are selfish? Yes I do, not all but many are and I hear this directly from the artists mouths.

[virtu]

Creep Machine Rocks.
Many new emerging artist received their first exposure at Creep Machine thanks to Josh.

If you would like to Josh id let you curate a group show at the gallery next year?
Creep Machine Presents....

[oldfartatplay]

Boto, this has been an interesting topic and thanks for posting your response. I’m glad that you didn’t take offence by my response (I tend to be a bit blunt and sarcastic at the same time).
Yes there are a lot of selfish art collectors just as there are a lot of selfish people in general. Anyway welcome to the board.

To thecreep, love your website! I’m wondering why I’ve never seen it before.

[sleepboy]

Sounds like some bad experiences Mr. Creep. I read your site...that's how i found chris murray.

[thecreep]

Thanks Sleepboy, im glad you like the site and continue to read it.

It hasnt been all bad experiences. Excellent Virtu has been very cool, even added my banner to the front page of the site. I would much rather get support from one gallery that that has killer intentions, than 30 galleries that care less.

All in all I have done what I set out to do, and that is to expose new talent. It would just be nice that a few of them appreciated it more.

[mokaneshu]

Well Creep, I can truly say you are a stand up guy who really loves art for the what it is. I couldn't be more happy to have meet you and even bought work from the B-Movie show from you. I really hope that more people start to give credit where credit is due. I think you're the reason I know that some people are out there simply because they love art, and really just want to help new artists get some exposure.

[thecreep]

Sept 3, 2008 22:15:29 GMT -8 mokaneshu said:

Well Creep, I can truly say you are a stand up guy who really loves art for the what it is. I couldn't be more happy to have meet you and even bought work from the B-Movie show from you. I really hope that more people start to give credit where credit is due. I think you're the reason I know that some people are out there simply because they love art, and really just want to help new artists get some exposure.

Wow killer, you bought art from the B movie show? Which piece? I'm bad with remembering screen names. I was so worried that show didn't do well, but it seems more and more that people liked it.

Art is really one of the main things I think about. Im going for a phd in Art History, and even hope to be one of the future historians of the art all of us on this board love. It really is far more important to me that the artists I share on my site do well, instead of my site doing well.

I did get the opportunity to curate another show, in 2009. Im very excited about it and the artists that are already on board seem to be very stoked about the theme of the show. I will post more once it is solidified.