Tin

[virtu]

I know allot of artist that have photo's for reference in their painting area.
Some artist hire a model and take reference photo's themselves.

Disney used live models or model sheets for his animators.

The photo below is Kathryn Beaumont posing for "Alice in Wonderland".

www.kathrynbeaumont.com/

[sabotage]

Apr 22, 2009 9:21:07 GMT -8 tin said:

...i will say if the above art is considered unforgivable by many here....i wont put it in a show..

Since its a call for opinions, I'll add mine. I don't think anyone will argue that its very common for artists to draw inspiration from photos of all kinds. The question becomes how much "inspiration" is OK. The answer is personal and relative. Therefore, if you and your client base don't have a problem with it I wouldn't worry about the opinion of this board in regards to the above image. It could, however, be beneficial to heed advice on future projects. This group is pretty smart and seem to be good buyers.
My personal opinion is I would like to see you use your own photography (taken yourself or commisioned by you) or get permission, for the simple fact that I wouldn't want any investment I make to be shrouded in controversy if it ever became an issue. I understand it makes your process more complicated and takes away some spontaneity, but think of it as safe sex...condoms are a drag, but they offer peace of mind.

[highbrow]

Tin,

hopefully this conversation will not make you change to much if anything of the way you do things, I am a huge fan of your work and lucky enough to own a few paintings and drawings and would have to say I would hate to see things change in a unnatural way, should you develop things in a natural normal way I am great with it, but to change things based on feedback may not be the way to go.

[leroy]

I really hope that anyone looking at Tin's work differently as a result of the photo comparisons can see that wherever he gets the material to create his art, it's the decisions, and editing, and creative vision that he brings that makes what he does special. I do feel like there are a few places where the line may be crossed a bit, and where that line is may be different for different people, but it doesn't change the fact that Tin has a beautiful sense of asthetic that can't be copied.

[88cruiser]

Tin's work is fantastic, and I think over time, he will find his way without using any sort of reference. All of the artists that I can think of use reference in one way or another. Some are quite blatant, and others are subtle. What matters is that when you see Tin's paintings, you know instantly who painted it. I'm curious to see how he progresses in the next few years.

[ericblair]

ARTIST TIN, WILL HAVE 4 MAJOR SOLO SHOWS at these high profile galleries over the coming year, according to his web site

COPRO GALLERY - JULY 2009
ROQ LA RUE GALLERY - SEPTEMBER 2009
GALLERY 1988 SF - MARCH 2010
COPRO GALLERY - JUNE 2010

I READ ON HIS BLOG EARLIER THIS WEEK that he possibly will cut that down to a single "TIN" show per year. He spoke about introducing a new artistic "identity", with a new STYLE of work!!! ONE artist, but TWO separate artistic endeavors!

VISIONARY. IS THIS A FIRST in the world of FINE ARTS? A first in POP SURREALISM? Artists that don't use their real names have that flexibility. If you are adept at using multiple styles, this allows you to EXPERIMENT. It allows for an alternative stream of income. One stream to pay the bills. And another to invest in the S&P 500. In the literary world we have Stephen King that used Richard Bachman as a pseudonym at one time in his career. Joyce Carol Oates used Rosamond Smith. Both of those writers are respected. King less so. King being a member of the McLiterati. That sounds mean. Hey, he's cool. This does relax the pressure from having to live up to audiences' high expectations all the time.

I DISLIKE THE FAKE NAMES though. I respect BANKSY and EMEK and they are top shelf high caliber artists. But they probably started their careers just experimenting and not really expecting their current levels of success. It's a bit childish and immature though, isn't it? Are fake names in the art world simply for "branding" purposes? Something being taught in Art Business 101? If branding is the reason, then the ulterior motive is money. It is gimmicky but I am not here to bash names like "TIN" or "KUKULA". It works for the fans! YAY! I suppose the one word fake artist names can also be interpreted as truly LOWBROW badges of honor. It's keeping in the spirit of LOWBROW!

I AM LOOKING THROUGH MY ART NOW book of Contemporary Art by Taschen, Artists at the Rise of the New Millenium (BOTH VOLUMES). There are a hundred names profiled in each. NOT ONE artist is using a gimmicky one word name. It smells like this is a trait of the STREET ART movement and now catching on in the LOW BROW ranks? It makes us all look like kids in a playground. Ugh. Cringe. I am older and maybe that's the reason for the disconnect. Perhaps that's why I am embarrassed. I am 34.

SO.........THE 2ND NAME TIN DECIDES ON as his alter alter ego, I hope it is like a really FAKE FULL NAME. May I suggest GASPER SANTIAGO TAKASHI ROMO! LOL

BY THE WAY, WHAT IS THE CORRECT TERMINOLOGY for an artist's "fake artist name"? Pseudonym? Nom de pallete? Nom de brosse de peinture?

I THINK HIS PLAN WILL WORK THOUGH!! This strategy outlined in his BLOG. I think it would appease his loyal rabid core of fans on Artchival where TIN keeps his trademark monochromatic steampunk fashion babes. For the others that are uncomfortable with his photo referencing, he will create a NEW totally original style. This dual identity plan will make EVERYONE HAPPY! CASE CLOSED and let us move on! HOORAY!

Hmmm. Interesting. His blog is blank now or I'm having technical difficulties.. It doesn't matter. Here I'll just dig into my browser's cache from earlier this week. Here are a couple of screenprints for you. I would not want for you to think I'm making up this dual identity thing. Here you are:



HERE IS A FUNNY POST where he calls members of this forum "beautiful". That was nice of him.



e. BLAIR!

[iswydt]

Apr 20, 2009 16:42:56 GMT -8 entropy said:

So I saw lfox's post last night and was fascinated. But I really wanted to know who the photographer was.

If I'm thinking of the same photo, the photographer's name is Joanna Kustra.

Here's a link to the whole series. community.livejournal.com/foto_decadent/1939456.html#cutid1

[gildoinc]

Thought the board would find this interesting.

www.theartnewspaper.com/article.asp?id=17147

[steveinca]

lets bring this thread back on topic...that being the art and not the rights.

[commandax]

For those who'd like to discuss the ethics or legal implications of image appropriation further, why don't we move it to this thread, which Svenman started the other day.

[evilchoy]

I must say it is a big deal and the lack of on board discussion by other members should not be inferred that they are not concerned. Tin's ability in the realm of artwork is not the issue but really his creativity is what is being questioned. To move it to another part of the board doesn't due anybody any good unless other artist are being questioned as well.

What I find very interesting is the constant attack of new board members and the lack of ability to see that Tin has acknowledge the discussion and has asked "us" to weigh in. I thank Tin for allowing this discussion to continue and thank all the board members that continue to discuss this manner with out personal attacks.

[sleepboy]

I think moving it to another thread on the board set up specifically to address this topic is appropriate. There people can discuss Tin's and any other artist's work in regard to this topic to their heart's content. I think we have already spent a couple pages beating a dead horse.

Although in general, artist's thread allow for discussion on anything related to the artist, I think that this topic has transcended this thread and could be more effectively discussed elsewhere. This not the first time this has happened in an artists thread, although rare.

And yes, I do appreciate Tin weighing in on the topic and giving his views on the topic.

[evilchoy]

I wonder if Tin was not a member if we would move this to another part of the board....

[juggernut3]

Apr 30, 2009 11:29:38 GMT -8 evilchoy said:

I wonder if Tin was not a member if we would move this to another part of the board....

I think Sleepboy is moving this to another thread because this is a subject that (potentially) touches on many artists and having this monopolize the discussion on any given artist's thread may waterdown the normal dialogue that may naturally occur.

One may argue that this is a natural topic for certain artists (prince, fairey, tin etc...) and that may be true, but for subjects that occur cross genre/art, its better to give it the respect it deserves as certainly these issues sometime warrant more attention in and of itself.

Don't worry... people will still know that we are discussing Tin, Shep, etc... in this new thread.

[commandax]

It seems to me that the point has already been made pretty effectively here, as regards Tin's work. There are other artists for whom this discussion is relevant, as well, and we could discuss the overall implications of this sort of practice more openly and less harmfully if we did it in a general discussion area. It's also possible that other artists might be willing to chime in on the subject if they didn't perceive it as sniping at one of their colleagues.

Of course, if people prefer to keep discussing it here, that's their perogative.

[evilchoy]

I'll bite, Tin's biggest supporters have been his collectors some who are moderators on this board. If you look at the number replies/pages when these issues have been moved to a new section in the past they have dropped to just a trickle.

I would love to know which artist you are implying commandax in terms of doing what Tin has done.

Jugger to equate Tin with shepard and prince takes alot of balls! One sold out copro small show compared to years of work.... and you know my opinion on shep talented but he is also greedy and opinionated.

Worry is not the case, it is the wording of steveinca post that got me to respond, really every artist does it! I personally found the article that was posted by gild to to be comparing apples to oranges but the poster does not need to be attacked.

[entropy]

The only problem with moving it to THIS thread: artchival.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=generaldiscussion&action=display&thread=1980
is that it's titled "photo referencing / artist inspiration". These are two totally different things. An artist's inspiration is hopefully based on an artist's idea, or concept, or vision and not necessarily a photo. "Photo referencing" itself should be just one weapon in an artist's creative arsenal.

If I'm gauging this correctly, I think maybe people would feel better if we moved the topic of discussion to a thread titled: Ethics, plagiarism, copyright misuse, and other legal issues. Or something to that effect.

Create that thread and then I think people would be cool with it.

[commandax]

Clearly there are still some folks here who want to discuss this seriously. As long as this thread doesn't degenerate into newbies and anonymous alter egos sniping and Tin collectors shooting back (which is what it was becoming), let's continue to have a civil discussion.

Perhaps Svenman would consider retitling his thread something like "The Ethics of Image Appropriation." That might be more relevant to what we are trying to get to the heart of.

[svenman]

Apr 30, 2009 6:34:26 GMT -8 gildoinc said:

Thought the board would find this interesting.

www.theartnewspaper.com/article.asp?id=17147

hey gildoinc, i certainly did find that article interesting. i'd read about the prince case earlier in the year, and this whole discussion made me think about it again, but i never got around to googling to see if there was any progression, so thanks for posting.

entropy - the thread i made has not been used. if that is down to the title i generalised it with, i apologise for missing the mark. please feel free to create whatever thread you want to and title it however you wish - it won't be stifled. if you think it will open up other avenues of discussion, then i'm all for it.

[juggernut3]

Apr 30, 2009 12:32:51 GMT -8 evilchoy said:

Jugger to equate Tin with shepard and prince takes alot of balls! One sold out copro small show compared to years of work.... and you know my opinion on shep talented but he is also greedy and opinionated.

^ This is the reason why I am in favor for moving the re-appropriation discussion to another thread. It seems that some people have preconcieved positive/negative opinions about Shepard or Prince. Thus their mention in this thread may leave an unwarranted comparison on Tin (whether positive or negative) to these artist OUTSIDE the context of image re-appropriation... which impacts artists across all genre's.

To clear up why I brought up Shep/Prince with Tin... it is a comparison that all three have been mentioned with regards to "re-appropriating" work from others. (allegedly) Tin is clearly at the beginning of his career, as opposed to Shepard/Prince having longer, successful, drama filled careers. But on this ONE TOPIC, they may are eligible to be discussed regardless of where they are in their careers. This topic potentially affects every artist, regardless of exposure or level of fame/accomplishment.

So let's label this discussion with a tread as Sleep and Command suggested to prevent any misunderstandings that could flow over if uncontained.

BTW... I'm guilty of wasting another post in this thread. -Sorry

[evilchoy]

What Prince and Shep did was manipulate and revision work of other people. At no point did anybody think that Prince takes those photo's himself or did he claim to do that. Is prince in the wrong for not throwing some money the photags way hell yes, but if prince bought the originals from him and then manipulated them I might have an argument in favor of what prince did, but at 1-3 mill a pop a few thousand would have been good Karma. This is my same argument with Shep.

In terms of Tin, I think that Tin has said it best. If anything Tin's responses have given me more respect for him as an artist and a human being. I am excited about his evolution and his future but I am glad I didn't pick up any of his pieces. Tins biggest problem wasn't that he heavily used source material it was the fact that he was over hyped way to quickly and he didn't have time to adjust his style before he got swept up in the market push.

[highbrow]

thanks evil

[droow2]

Not been here for a while and have just seen all this. How odd.

I've got quite a few Tin pieces and have been a huge fan since he first posted on Kidrobot. I personally have no problem with where the source for his work comes from.

I'm a graphic designer and have been for some 20+ years and I can safely say I've never done a piece of work that i've not plagiarized from something I've seen elsewhere. I know it's not quite the same thing, but for me, it's all about Tin's style, that's why I love his pictures.

I think EvilChoy may have a point as far as "Tin's biggest problem wasn't that he heavily used source material it was the fact that he was over hyped way to quickly and he didn't have time to adjust his style before he got swept up in the market push." (hope he doesn't get mad because I stole that sentence from him !) But I again that's testament to his style hitting the mark with so many people.

Oh and if anyone knows which pic inspired Pixel I'd love to know as I love the idea Entropy had of displaying them side by side.

[evilchoy]

LOL....droow since you used quotations and you sourced the originator of the statement it is all good.

****no problem****

going back to tin the piece he did for gallery 1988 is really fun I wish I could see all of the eyepatch girls side by side....

[benvan]

I too have been interested in following this thread, and while I do not share the same vitriol for this issue, I am in agreement to your premise. My joy in all aspects of art (paintings/movies/books/etc.) as well as my job (architecture) has been experiencing something truly unique and creative. Something where you can't imagine how someone could possibly think of that. I unfortunately do not get that from Tin's work. And while technique is another important aspect of art (of which Tim seems to possess), the best seem to pull off the unthinkable with great technique.
In my field, aspects, technical features, and some ideas from other will always be used to create new buildings, but in the creative side of architecture, copying to that magnitude is never accepted. I see art the same way, artists will always use reference to make aspects of the paintings appear correct, but I believe these use too much of the original idea of the photographs idea and composition in Tin's work.
the aspect to the previous post I am not sure I agree with is who's responsibility this issue lies with. Surely the artist takes some responsibility, but I believe the collector takes a lot more of the responsibility than the gallery. If the art sells and is popular, you can not expect all galleries to not present the work. The collector, on the other hand is who chooses what type and medium of art is important to them, and buys art based on their beliefs. Some may feel like this is not important to them, which is their prerogative, and others choose not to purchase for the same reasons.
I believe it is clear there is talent there, but it will be hard to maintain this popularity working with the same process, people (i think) will eventually want to know the understand the true creativity in the Tin's mind.