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Post by drevil on Oct 22, 2013 11:04:28 GMT -8
A quick (fictional...) example: Assume that the gallery is bidding on this and driving up the price. They donated it so they will get a tax deduction for that initial donation value. They will also get a tax deduction for the difference between the estimate and the final price (which is 10x here already, so not insignificant). Then they win and get the painting back which they can then resell later on and point to this charity auction as a comp if desired. So the gallery gets two tax breaks and the original work itself back with a new price point established for the re-sale of that same exact work. The only downside is that there is no written record of the final result, as has been stated here. However, this message board is overcoming that problem as we speak by talking about the $15k mark; something that is pretty easily found using google. But the biggest upside for the gallery would be that they have now moved the price point up for Lund's work across the board going forward. Profit baby. Congrats to all. The price (like that of any artist at this stage and attention of their career) of Israel Lund's work is carefully considered and executed. They have to weigh the long-term cause and effect of putting the work at any price. They can pretty much ask whatever (to a degree) and still sell out. That's not the point right now. They do not need a high auction price to justify a certain primary price because that result is not relevant to their pricing strategies. He's not someone like MBW (no offense to fans of his work) where they need to strike when the iron is hot because there won't be another time. He's got his entire career ahead of him. Sure sure. But buyers also like to think they are getting a fair deal. This comp will help overcome that mental barrier when they are presented with similar prices by the gallery in the future. You talked about the DiCaprio auction above. What buyer was it that set the world record for Grotjahn in that auction again? |
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Post by drevil on Oct 22, 2013 11:13:27 GMT -8
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Post by artladval on Oct 22, 2013 11:20:10 GMT -8
The price (like that of any artist at this stage and attention of their career) of Israel Lund's work is carefully considered and executed. They have to weigh the long-term cause and effect of putting the work at any price. They can pretty much ask whatever (to a degree) and still sell out. That's not the point right now. They do not need a high auction price to justify a certain primary price because that result is not relevant to their pricing strategies. He's not someone like MBW (no offense to fans of his work) where they need to strike when the iron is hot because there won't be another time. He's got his entire career ahead of him. Sure sure. But buyers also like to think they are getting a fair deal. This comp will help overcome that mental barrier when they are presented with similar prices by the gallery in the future. You talked about the DiCaprio auction above. What buyer was it that set the world record for Grotjahn in that auction again? How do Mark Grotjahn and Larry Gagosian/B&P compare to Israel Lund and David Lewis/R&T at this very moment in time? Notice I am not denying certain actions and auction strategies exist. They do. What I am saying is that things should be looked at a case by case basis and not a apply-this-to-everything scenario. |
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Post by svenman on Oct 22, 2013 11:29:29 GMT -8
I struggle to take Paddle8 seriously due to the complete lack of transparency. Has anyone bought through them? I've successfully bought a piece on Paddle8 and even then I wasn't sure if I'd won until they contacted me a couple hours after the auction finished, despite watching the auction to the end. On another occasion I thought I had won but can only assume I didn't as I was never contacted. Not the best user experience. They used to be called blacklots right? I had two experiences with them... the first (as blacklots), i was not the first bidder, and apparently not the last as i didn't 'win' the auction. directly, and i mean directly after the sale, they contacted me to say the buyer didn't commit and they offered me the piece for the price the piece apparently 'sold' at above my bid. i said GTF. the second (as paddle 8), i was the first bidder, and apparently the only bidder from what i saw. the auction ended and i expected that i had won. i was told that my bid wasn't registered and i therefore couldn't purchase the piece. i said WTF. definitely not the best user experience for me. |
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 23, 2013 0:12:07 GMT -8
From a general view point all the things said are not wrong, but are totally generic and could be addressed to any circumstances.
I guess that here we are trhee, four people talking about this possible manipulations... in a few days the auction will be closed and noone will know the real end of the story.
There won't be any mark in any database about this auction.
It would have ben much easyer for the gallery to make up a live auction event, with several bids made but several different person.
So that everyone could have seen it with their eyes.
And... one more thing: would have had any sense to make this manipulation with such a small painting? We are discussing about (only) 15.000 USD, which is not this impressive sum in the art market.
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Post by pokymoll on Oct 23, 2013 0:21:32 GMT -8
Anyway... just to add fuel to the fire... a second work is actually on auction for laxart :-) paddle8.com/work/israellund/21999-untitledGuess there could be more subjects both for the skepticals both for the pragmatists!! |
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Post by artcubed on Oct 23, 2013 0:27:50 GMT -8
This is turning into a very interesting thread. I'm sitting in the Drevil camp at the moment. The only other explanation, which I consider unlikely, is that there is some inside information that is coming into play here ie. Israel Lund has already signed for a higher end/ blue chip gallery and the current Paddle8 price is reflecting this. This is essentially what drove the Oscar Murillo prices so high back in May, which at the time wasn't public knowledge - along with I've no doubt some gentle manipulation. Love it or hate it, this is the art market and another dynamic that makes life as an art collector so interesting...
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Post by pokymoll on Nov 5, 2013 0:33:16 GMT -8
There is a new piece at paddle8, black and white... more to discuss about :-)
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Post by WillNyc on Jan 2, 2014 13:24:50 GMT -8
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Post by WillNyc on Jan 5, 2014 22:26:22 GMT -8
 &  Both of them are the 11 x 8 size and is SOLD |
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Post by mose on Jan 6, 2014 3:55:41 GMT -8
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Post by herzog on Jan 6, 2014 4:41:28 GMT -8
Interesting work Mose. Thanks for the links
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Post by waltercrunk on Jan 6, 2014 13:41:36 GMT -8
Both beautiful Lunds. Im taken more with the piece less painted.
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Post by pokymoll on Jan 10, 2014 5:55:34 GMT -8
& Both of them are the 11 x 8 size and is SOLD Great works!!!!! |
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Post by mose on Jan 11, 2014 7:22:49 GMT -8
Let's start a discussion.
What is of value in these works, and what is Lund doing that, in the midst of 1,000,001 artists, that will be memorable, move art history along, etc.?
Not being snarky, its the same question I try to ask myself about everything I see. Sometimes I actually even answer it satisfactorily, but honestly that is rare.
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Post by drevil on Jan 11, 2014 21:41:35 GMT -8
Application of contemporary technology platforms to the old ideas of image creation and repetition? Pretty obvious and/or derivative work IMO. Seems like a more modern application of what Short has been doing. And others too. (Thanks for pointing out Short btw).
Lots of hype and high prices but seems like just another cog in the wheel that will contribute little to art history based on the present output to date.
Would be interested to hear from someone who actually owns his work. I am not that person nor will I ever be.
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Post by artladval on Mar 11, 2014 9:12:13 GMT -8
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Post by mose on Mar 11, 2014 10:44:56 GMT -8
Thanks for sharing. It's good to see Short getting some attention and continuing to gain traction.
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Post by wimbledongreen on Apr 21, 2014 11:30:27 GMT -8
Lund from June 2013 already up at Christie's auction with a $30,000-$40,000 estimate. That's a pretty quick turnaround from time of delivery of the painting (exhibition at Eleven Rivington ended August 9, 2013) to contacting the auction house about getting the painting in the auction. Parker Ito, Sam Falls, and other current "hot artists" also in the sale.  |
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Post by ricosg11 on Apr 21, 2014 11:43:25 GMT -8
if it only hits that estimate there will be a lot of disappointed folks. That's the saddest part.
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Post by queequeg on Apr 21, 2014 16:14:36 GMT -8
if it only hits that estimate there will be a lot of disappointed folks. That's the saddest part. I threw up in my mouth when I realized the estimate on that painting is, per square inch equal to the estimate on the RH Quaytman, who has possibly seen fewer works reach auction than Lund has! Based on what I've seen, Lund is one of the most undeserved of the hedge fund hotties. In 10 years these auctions will be a fun read. A who's who of the hot or not speculative boom and eventual bust. Which ones will become damaged goods? |
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Post by drevil on Apr 21, 2014 19:32:40 GMT -8
if it only hits that estimate there will be a lot of disappointed folks. That's the saddest part. I threw up in my mouth when I realized the estimate on that painting is, per square inch equal to the estimate on the RH Quaytman, who has possibly seen fewer works reach auction than Lund has! Based on what I've seen, Lund is one of the most undeserved of the hedge fund hotties. In 10 years these auctions will be a fun read. A who's who of the hot or not speculative boom and eventual bust. Which ones will become damaged goods? Would be interested to see your list of "hedge fund hotties" and it would make it easier to answer the question. |
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Post by mose on Apr 22, 2014 6:03:55 GMT -8
I look at that auction, and see that Hammons Kool-Aid estimate of $150k-$200k and wish that I had money, lol.
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Post by queequeg on Apr 22, 2014 6:32:28 GMT -8
list of "hedge fund hotties" Sounds like a job better left to someone like William Powhida. Or maybe Peter Davies could recreate an even more tongue in cheek version of his "Hot One Hundred" work and replace all the established/blue chip artists with some of the hundreds of twenty something "future blue chippers" |
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Post by herzog on May 7, 2014 2:41:08 GMT -8
Can anyone please assist with picking up an edition at the printed matter booth this weekend....
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